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We talked about this a bit when @mthr_jo brought up Khan on here the other day.
Meyer got that Kirk was best played as a swashbuckler who'd got old, and didn't like it.
Both Khan and Undiscovered are about Kirk becoming comfortable with his past and accepting it's gone forever. https://twitter.com/_AlexanderMiles/status/1359876615086501897
Meyer got that Kirk was best played as a swashbuckler who'd got old, and didn't like it.
Both Khan and Undiscovered are about Kirk becoming comfortable with his past and accepting it's gone forever. https://twitter.com/_AlexanderMiles/status/1359876615086501897
And, if you think about it, that's essentially what Shatner was by that point as well.
Meyer's genius was in getting Shatner to play himself (at which he's very good) while thinking he was playing Kirk.
That's why they're hands down his finest performances. And feel so... human
Meyer's genius was in getting Shatner to play himself (at which he's very good) while thinking he was playing Kirk.
That's why they're hands down his finest performances. And feel so... human
They're both also about Kirk having to become accountable for his mistakes and confronting them.
Khan is about Kirk finally realising the cost of his OWN actions over the years.
Undiscovered is about Kirk finally realising the cost of his GENERATION's actions on the galaxy.
Khan is about Kirk finally realising the cost of his OWN actions over the years.
Undiscovered is about Kirk finally realising the cost of his GENERATION's actions on the galaxy.
In both instances, Kirk's heroism is in him accepting his own flaws, and trying to be better. Rather than burying them deep and trying to be the proud warrior forever.
"Your past doesn't have to define you, if you acknowledge it." Is the message of both Khan and Undiscovered.
"Your past doesn't have to define you, if you acknowledge it." Is the message of both Khan and Undiscovered.
I mean, Meyer pretty much lampshades all of this right the way through both films. That's what all the fucking Dickens and Shakespeare quotes are about.
There's a reason Plummer's under that makeup as General Chang. The man was famed for his performances as both Hamlet AND Lear!
There's a reason Plummer's under that makeup as General Chang. The man was famed for his performances as both Hamlet AND Lear!
Five words:
"THIS is Ceta Alpha Five!!"
Khan HIMSELF is Kirk's mistake. The death of the trainees is a reminder to us, as much as Kirk, that Kirk is STILL making the same decisions, with consequences for others and not him, now. https://twitter.com/james_barton/status/1359881035211804675
"THIS is Ceta Alpha Five!!"
Khan HIMSELF is Kirk's mistake. The death of the trainees is a reminder to us, as much as Kirk, that Kirk is STILL making the same decisions, with consequences for others and not him, now. https://twitter.com/james_barton/status/1359881035211804675
Khan's whole beef with Kirk is that he wants him to feel a fraction of the suffering for his own actions that Khan, his wife, and his crew have felt.
Granted, he's a bit wacko Captain Ahab about it. But you can't really argue he hasn't got a point!
Granted, he's a bit wacko Captain Ahab about it. But you can't really argue he hasn't got a point!
But even the trainee deaths aren't enough to make Kirk realise he needs to change. They shock him, sure, but into "I'm KIRK. I can fix this." mode.
That's why he's so schoolboy gleeful about admitting he doesn't believe in a No Win Scenario on the asteroid:
"Spock, you there?"
That's why he's so schoolboy gleeful about admitting he doesn't believe in a No Win Scenario on the asteroid:
"Spock, you there?"
But yeah, it's SPOCK'S death that finally lands for Kirk.
Because that's the point where he realises that until then, there was no such thing as a 'no win scenario' FOR HIM, because it was always someone else paying the price.
And now that person is Spock, it hurts HIM.
Because that's the point where he realises that until then, there was no such thing as a 'no win scenario' FOR HIM, because it was always someone else paying the price.
And now that person is Spock, it hurts HIM.
(You could dwell for HOURS on the fact that Kirk still displays his awesome space-boomer privilege armour in the fact that it's HIS BEST SPACE MATE who suffers, not him, but you have to roll with what script and actor wishes allow)
Anyway. That's why the end of Khan feels so melancholic. Because, ultimately (and Meyer is a fecking GENIUS for this) he leaves us as the audience feeling like:
"Wait, we won, didn't we? Did we?"
Because no. We, and more particularly KIRK, didn't.
"Wait, we won, didn't we? Did we?"
Because no. We, and more particularly KIRK, didn't.
Both Khan, and Kirk, won in their own way. But they also both lost everything that mattered to themselves in the process.
But Kirk is still standing, and is determined to be a better man.
But Kirk is still standing, and is determined to be a better man.
Bingo.
With the exception of one side mention ("Those men saved this planet") Undiscovered ignores everything in between and treats itself as a direct sequel to Khan.
If you watch it, you can see that Kirk IS better. No one dies because HE fucked up. https://twitter.com/james_barton/status/1359881364259155970
With the exception of one side mention ("Those men saved this planet") Undiscovered ignores everything in between and treats itself as a direct sequel to Khan.
If you watch it, you can see that Kirk IS better. No one dies because HE fucked up. https://twitter.com/james_barton/status/1359881364259155970
Indeed General Chang's whole PLAN depends on Kirk still being old Kirk.
Old Kirk would have fired on Chancellor Gorkon's and started a war. That's what Chang WANTED.
But Kirk SURRENDERS.
Old Kirk would have fired on Chancellor Gorkon's and started a war. That's what Chang WANTED.
But Kirk SURRENDERS.
And that's because, you're right, Gorkon has ALREADY got him thinking about whether “Don’t believe them! Don’t trust them!” is still right.
When he looks across that table at Chang, he sees himself. Chang wants him to embrace what he is. Kirk realises that he doesn't like it now
When he looks across that table at Chang, he sees himself. Chang wants him to embrace what he is. Kirk realises that he doesn't like it now
And that's Kirk's whole arc throughout the film. Chang's whole mission is to get Kirk to take the easy path and go full swashbuckler again.
Kirk's heroism is in realising that his whole GENERATION need to fucking cut that shit out, and to do that he needs to step up and own up.
Kirk's heroism is in realising that his whole GENERATION need to fucking cut that shit out, and to do that he needs to step up and own up.
Again, Meyer is brilliant. There's LAYERS to that film. it's great AS A MOVIE, not just Trek.
Kirk's OPINION of the Klingons doesn't change throughout. Even at the end.
He's just brave enough to accept that what he thinks doesn't matter anymore. The future doesn't belong to him
Kirk's OPINION of the Klingons doesn't change throughout. Even at the end.
He's just brave enough to accept that what he thinks doesn't matter anymore. The future doesn't belong to him
One of those layers, btw, is when you realise that the Star Fleet High Command conspiracists DELIBERATELY sent Kirk to meet Kronos One.
Because if you think about it, it's a VERY odd choice!
But they wanted him, because they expected him to react to Chang the right way.
Because if you think about it, it's a VERY odd choice!
But they wanted him, because they expected him to react to Chang the right way.
Yeah. Spock ALREADY knows Kirk better than Kirk knows himself.
Again, it's a beautiful tie-in back to Wrath. At Spock's funeral, when Kirk says he was "the most human" he's really saying that Spock makes HIM human. https://twitter.com/garius/status/1359900143449964548
Again, it's a beautiful tie-in back to Wrath. At Spock's funeral, when Kirk says he was "the most human" he's really saying that Spock makes HIM human. https://twitter.com/garius/status/1359900143449964548
And one of the OTHER layers to Undiscovered is that it essentially SEPARATES Kirk from his human crutch (Spock) for the guts of the film.
Proving that Spock is right. Kirk is a better person now.
(See him taking responsibility for Gorkon's murder at the trial)
Proving that Spock is right. Kirk is a better person now.
(See him taking responsibility for Gorkon's murder at the trial)
Yup. Not just Kirk and David either. Meyer does layers perfectly.
The whole Spock/Valeris thing is set up as Spock failing his quasi-daughter, as much as Kirk failed David.
Remember: Valeris was MEANT to be Saavik. That's what was originally planned. https://twitter.com/Chromakey11/status/1359910167140302849
The whole Spock/Valeris thing is set up as Spock failing his quasi-daughter, as much as Kirk failed David.
Remember: Valeris was MEANT to be Saavik. That's what was originally planned. https://twitter.com/Chromakey11/status/1359910167140302849
Basically Meyer is very careful to point out that although Spock hides it better, he's screwed up lives on his life journey by being the polar OPPOSITE of Kirk for too long.
They complete each other.
I've often wondered if that's why Discovery played on this so much in Season 1
They complete each other.
I've often wondered if that's why Discovery played on this so much in Season 1
It's the one bit where Undiscovered fails. Why would Spock be SO disappointed in Valeris' betrayal?
But if you imagine everything Spock says to her as if he's talking to Saavik, who he has encouraged and mentored like his own daughter since the Academy, suddenly it hits HAAARD.
But if you imagine everything Spock says to her as if he's talking to Saavik, who he has encouraged and mentored like his own daughter since the Academy, suddenly it hits HAAARD.
Btw, I'm not doing this thread because I want people to think Trek is OMG GREAT. It's simply because I'm FASCINATED by how people like Meyer build believable, emotional on-screen universes.
So much of good writing is about building layers in that people don't see, but feel.
So much of good writing is about building layers in that people don't see, but feel.
And there's a lot of enjoyment, not to mention learning (if you like telling stories) to be found in saying:
"Hang on WHY is this film punching above its genre/weight?"
Suddenly you spot the layers the creator put there, but are borderline subconscious to you. And that's lovely
"Hang on WHY is this film punching above its genre/weight?"
Suddenly you spot the layers the creator put there, but are borderline subconscious to you. And that's lovely
Which is also why you should NEVER EVER ask me about the Princess Diaries if you bump into me after I've had a couple of pints.
And it's why I'll talk shit about rebooting Columbo with Donald Glover. Or a "Life in New York" apartment sitcom with Legolas and Gimli as leads.
Because they're things that ON THE SURFACE shouldn't work, but subconsciously you can see how the layers would build perfectly.
Because they're things that ON THE SURFACE shouldn't work, but subconsciously you can see how the layers would build perfectly.
Oh, and btw if you love hearing creators talk freely about what was going through their minds when they create this stuff. People like Meyer Bellisario, or Steven Cannell, then let me introduce you to the Television Academy interview archive:
https://interviews.televisionacademy.com/shows
Enjoy!
https://interviews.televisionacademy.com/shows
Enjoy!
