Thread by @AlexAlicit, We've been down this hill before but I feel we're going to [...]

We've been down this hill before but I feel we're going to be revisiting it, this will be about the argument involving XY karyotyped DSDs, but particularly the focus is on 5-ARD, or rather Caster Semenya's unusual variant. The treatment of women with internal testicles is poor.

That said there is a world of difference between Caster's situation and someone born with PAIS, or CAIS. 5-ARD is typically a male congenital condition of sexual development, females typically are carriers but apparently something went different in Caster's particular case.

Mokgadi Caster Semenya is a South African Athlete at the olympic level, she also has a condition which is understood to be some form or variant of 5α-Reductase deficiency which is an autosomal recessive intersex condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2.

5ARD is a condition that is found in both XY Genotypes, and XX Genotypes with XY genotypes typically being male, and XX genotypes being female. XX genotypes affected by 5ARD are hardly affected, so they might as well not be classified as intersex and are typically just carriers.

XY genotypes though? You end up with children who are born with vaginas that end up having the genitalia masculinize, although some cases clearly don't "fully masculinize." Enter Semenya, someone with virilized yet, female genitalia as we know from an intrusive testing exam.

One misconception I see used a lot against Caster Semenya is the fact she's being compared to Caucasian beauty standards, when she is in fact an African American woman and realistically shouldn't be held to beauty standards in general because they're BS- but that's another topic.

Personally speaking I am a bit unconvinced that Caster's diagnosis is actually 5-ARD. The tests confirm it though but something about her case is just drastically different compared to every other previous recorded mention and diagnosis.

In 2012 London 800 metre race, Caster Semenya had a time of 1:57:23, whereas the woman she lost to who had been proven to use steroids to enhance her performance was Mariya Savinova who cleared with 1:56:19 - So this shows that Caster Semenya at her peak lost to steroid use.

On top of that, testimonies and witnesses report that Caster is obsessive about racing and that the track is her life. She's in great shape and doesn't let her body just sit, like you'd expect of any athlete at the olympic level but Caster especially has made running her life.

Semenya's time in the 2016 Rio games was 1:55.28. Now in the past I compared her to two other intersex women who competed, which the times were the following: Francine Niyonsaba at 1:56.49 and then Margaret Nyairera Wambui at 1:56.89.

The times you are interested though is the 4th place runner for 2016 Rio Games: Melissa Bishop at 1:57.02 meaning she came very close to beating 3rd place. Then you also have 5th place: Joanna Jozwik at 1:57.37

So technically speaking, 2 seconds is a big deal especially in the 800m. That said though, here's a list of the times ranging from 3rd to 8th:

Now I haven't researched deeply into it but from what I understand the only intersex women are 1st to 3rd, and their times aren't exactly dwarfing the women they've beat. That said though it is worth acknowledging my early comment on how Caster lost to a woman who took steroids.

It is also worth noting that none of these intersex women who placed for the three medals in Rio 2016 came close to the last place for the same event with men, Boris Berian at 1:46.15. That said I don't know the physical condition of 2nd and 3rd, I only researched Caster.

I will stick by my opinion that Semenya, despite her appearance and testosterone levels is equivalent to a trans man. She has natural testosterone unlike a trans man but clearly received changes similar to any other bio female. Despite training and being at peak performance

She cannot hold a candle to the 8th place runner in the same event of the men's category.

I find her advantage there due to her natural testosterone and not one that should be cleared. I think ideally the best option would be a 3rd category. My thoughts haven't changed here.

1 where intersex women like Semenya can participate, trans men who are on testosterone and trans women following the women's regulation on testosterone. I feel despite the biological males having an advantage in terms of mass, suppression will make it fair grounds for competition

So here's where slippery slope comes in. The common argument I hear on Semenya being a biological male comes from her internal testicles and the fact that they "supposedly" can produce viable sperm, due to records of previous more virilized-genitalia wise doing the same.

I've seen people regard her genitalia as a "pseudo-vagina" which is just.. insulting, degrading even. People even outright calling her a man because "oh he's male!" and it grows tiring. I know her situation is a rare and tricky one but come on people, decent human respect.

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is another such example of "internal" gonads, the difference of course is that AIS women have a variance of immunity to the androgens their body produces and the internal gonads can rarely become tumerous. Aromatase kicks in too.

By the same logic used against Semenya, women with AIS are no longer women. They are men, "feminized men" at that. "Oh but women with AIS were raised girls and perceived as women!" First, what even IS perceived as a woman? Insulting stereotypes and beauty standards?! Slippery..

Second, Semenya GREW UP a girl, she had an atypical puberty that led to her not being pressured like other girls to cave into demands of femininity. When you start "looking" like a woman, the world makes SURE you know. Why do you think so many girls are IDing out of being girls?!

Third, Your logic of WOMAN being an ADULT HUMAN FEMALE no longer applies to women you classify as men, the same as trans women who are in fact biological males altering their bodies for varying reasons. But this isn't necessarily about them, at least it SHOULDN'T BE!!!

You can't just make selective exceptions and then stand by your definition. You can't say a woman with AIS/5-ARD is biologically male but socially women while telling a passing trans woman that they are not socially a woman and throwing their biological sex in their face.

AIS, 5-ARD anything that leads to internal gonads and a vagina.. they're all complicated CCSDs/VSDs. Then what stops us from going all the way back? That the SRY being present means you're male? That not having ovaries, or even just HAVING a Y chromosome means you're male?

I'm passionate about this argument because unlike other intersex women I wasn't given the full details and honesty of my VSD/CCSD, I was lead to believe I had AIS when I finally found out I was intersex myself. I still remember when I stood on the opposite end of this argument.

One of my reasons was the fact even if I was a "lesser woman" at least I was female! I was a lesser female. Contrary to the vile people I'd end up in debates with who insisted I was male, or a man and I should accept it.

Of course any woman with AIS will take the side of the people who aren't fully erasing her sex, implying she's something she isn't. Same applies to Caster, if people approached this more rationally the gender extremists wouldn't be able to jump and convince her to fight with them

Reality of the situation is if trans athletes get the right to compete then Caster's career will be done too. Women on testosterone have no chance against a self-IDed male who doesn't want to hormonally suppress themselves. She can't see this likely, or doesn't think it'll happen

So think about this, think about this with your god damn head when you argue this. What makes Semenya any different from a black trans man? She has the same level of misogyny as many of them as well, feeling being a woman is attached to expectations and associations.

Yes.. I know I'm white, I know I shouldn't overstep my boundaries but the blatant mistreatment of this intersex woman boils my blood and strikes too personal of a chord, reminding me of when as a woman with AIS diagnosis at the time, I stood alongside the gender extremists.

XY women, no XY females have always been on the crappy end of this treatment.. always told we're broken, not female enough.. defective and some even pressured to transition, especially now. What the hell happened to fighting stereotypes and gender?!

Why does all the respect I have for most of the people in this movement disappear the moment AIS, sometimes even Swyer and Caster Semenya show up in the argument? Why does it seem hypocritical and wrong?! You can't break your own rules when they're set.

That's what you criticize trans people for and those supporting them.

I will not apologize for my anger on this topic.

This is why I strive to push for the XX and XY genotype classification as it doesn't give people the opportunity to insist XY women are MALE.

Years ago, many of you would have probably sided with the same woman who ripped me a new one.. called me delusional, opened my eyes to how different I was from a trans woman.. but that wasn't her goal. She made me question my faith, my belief if you will.

Her goal was to protect women it wasn't to give tough love to an intersex female, she saw me a male infiltrator... No different from the trans women she debated.

Now on this end myself, I wonder how much different my perspective would be had I been diagnosed initially with Swyer

I've been through a rough medical journey myself, I hate seeing the treatment of XY females in this argument and the dependency on gonads to determine sex.. I hate the fact we have to actively see XY females get their sex erased and then stupidly ask "why?"

I don't approve of how Caster Semenya and women with AIS are treated in this debate. Yes they're very specific cases but why are they being treated like trans women? It really does make me wonder sometimes if I am on the right side for intersex people when I see such disregard.

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