WESC - first up Robin Moira White

GRA is outdated - it was mainly about equal marriage.
It confuses sex and gender

Karon Monaghan - Sex is about biology, gender is the social aspects - it conflates them

KM in relation to the criteria --there is a lack of clarity - "living in the required gender" - very unclear what that means? How to assess that? Danger of falling into gender stereotypes

Robin - i had no difficulty spotting the point when I stopped living in one gender and not the other - there is a social aspect and a legal aspect. defining the edges of that is not easy.

People applying don't find it difficult to define - pronouns, name, bills etc...

I don't think it is particularly difficult.

Any definition is in some respects based on stereotypes

Naomi Cunningham - GRC cannot literally change someones sex and it cannot govern social aspects.

So what does "for all purposes" mean in s9 ?

It would be clearer and more obvious if the fact that it is limited was right up front - there are legal exceptions

Robin:

Exceptions for medical treatment, car insurance " a medic may need to record properly"

Inheritance isnt altered by the gender recognition act

Karon - more controversial exceptions are the ones that apply because of the Equality Act.

Q: How does it operate in relation to parental leave

Karon: I don't know but one assumes that your sex as well as your gender is changed by GRC

You can't be the father if you are the mother (Freddy McConnell case)

Robin: has advised employers that transwoman get the maternity leave and transman get paternity leave

Karon: I don't know - the woman who has given birth ought to have all the rights that maternity would give them

Karon: if one is going to liberalise GRCs that should not impose on maternity rights.

Robin: the employer wanted to do the right thing. The two employers agreed something they were all happy with. If we got into litigation the situation is complex

Naomi: I would be very surprised if the legal entitlement doesn't stay with the person has given birth! (me too!)

It is a sign of how our expectations have drifted since it was drafted. It was all but impossible that this was even considered as a possibility in drafting the GRA

MP: There is adoption, surrogacy, so many ways to become a mother without giving birth.

What about leave for fertility treatment?

Robin there is no case law or litigation in this area. Mainly employers are trying to do the right thing

MP: should the living in role be removed?
Karon: yes it is problematic because of gender stereotypes. I don't know why you should have to show.
If the cost is to show "this is how women are" - in entrenches social norms.
Why should they have to wait 2 years.

Robin: Why should you have to wait. And you can't apply till you are 18. Why do you have to wait.
Sally from the Law Society : we would support its removal for the reasons already stated. In Ireland there is no requirement

Naomi - what does living as a woman mean? Hair, makeup, stereotypes?

Should it be till death?

Robin - I'm sure there should be some formality, but a person should have a route back. It is possible to change their mind later.

Naomi - we don't think it should be removed - the whole idea was that a very small number of people should be able to transition. But it does make serious demands on the rest of society. It should be intended for life. Even though you can detransition (like a divorce).

Karon - yes it should be intended to be intentional. Although people may detransition.