The following thread is for people familiar with the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. I don't expect that most others will get much out of it. Atheists and non-believers will probably want to skip it altogether.

In Pentecostal and Charismatic churches there is a genuine outpouring of power and the Holy Spirit that people outside the movement often fail to recognize.

Anyone familiar with the movement knows of times when the presence of God was a palpable thing, where miracles occurred, and the gifts of the Spirit were in operation.

But there is also a deception present in this movement. This deception revolves around the reason for this outpouring of the Spirit. People in the movement place primacy on preaching, elevating the message and the messenger above all else.

However, the presence of God is usually not linked to the preaching at all. Instead, it is dependent on three things:

1. Worship.
2. An invocation of the Holy Spirit, inviting his presence, and receiving him when he arrives.
3. Faith in God's ability to work.

Of these three things, worship is by far the most important. However, instead of being the center of the service, worship is just used as a prelude to the message.

Then after the messenger speaks, he performs "miracles" and "spiritual acts" for the audience at an altar call, without true recognition that if there is anything miraculous at work at all, it is not dependent on the messenger.

There is a lot to unpack here, but let's begin with the fact that the messenger can preach falsehoods in his message and lead his flock astray, and there will still be an outpouring of the Spirit.

(This is true in part because the gifts and callings are without repentance, in part because of people's faith, and in part because the Holy Spirit is already present.) The congregation and the minister will then identify the work of the Spirit with his false message.

Just as big of a danger is the fact that everyone involved has opened themselves up to all kinds of spiritual activity without any discernment at all. Maybe what they think is the work of the Holy Spirit is really demonic activity.

We can see this most in the prophetic movement, where ministers have operated with genuine words of knowledge (people who have been involved in this movement can testify to the truth of this--there sometimes is genuine prophecy at work).

Yet, the message that's being preached is wrong or even leads away from God. Soon, these genuine words of knowledge are mixed with prophesies that are demonstrably false. In the end, the whole movement's been led over a cliff by soothsayers who had no connection with God at all.

This is how Jesus could say, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

"Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

Jesus is not saying that they didn't give true prophecies, didn't drive out demons, and didn't perform miracles. In fact, he is implying that they may have in fact done--or appeared to have done--all these things. He is saying that they were not walking in the truth.

Somehow, the church needs to get back to moving in the Spirit. However, this needs to be connected to the truth--to Scripture and God, and not to a minister and his message.

The key, I think, is the elevation of worship, both in private and as a congregation, as the main role of the believer and the church.

Instead of elevating the minister and "his" ministry, it might actually be better for a church to worship, read the Bible and have a very brief homily (no more than five minutes), and then have people (not just the "minister") pray for each other.

This would then be followed by fellowship and the breaking of bread.

A podium, stage, and church building are unnecessary for this kind of church. Nor is a "minister." In fact, the times I have personally witnessed the presence of the Holy Spirit most powerfully were in home meetings with no more than twenty people present.

Anyway, these are just some of my thoughts. I know that there are probably many more people who have come out of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement than are currently in it. I wonder if any share my perspective.