Read on Twitter
to pick up here, I will continue a few notes on this conversation happening in Clubhouse about Xinjiang (letters do not correspond with real names; I am excluding or generalizing any specifically identifiable biographical information) (not all speakers here/all in order) https://twitter.com/KaiserKuo/status/1358112725038202880
A, Han—Talking about how Han can sympathize with the fear Uyghurs feel when the speak out, citing what he argues is something many have felt: the sense of unease or fear when they talk about or are confronted with a “sensitive” facts/circumstances.
B, Han—Talks about hearing others use “civilization” and “education” to justify the camps. Asks—but what are these things? As the majority, who are we to decide versus others what is a worthy culture? B is uncomf w/people relying on ethnic integration—reminds her of Han-ization
C, Han—talks about significance of the conversation in the context of human rights and wider society. Hopeful that it can continue elsewhere. Talks about her sense of shame as a Han despite not directly doing anything to Uyghurs—hopes Han like her can and should do more.
D, Han—talks about a friend from XJ who came to a major inland city for school and then started working there. He wanted his parents, who had never been there, to come and visit, but they were stopped on their way to the city by police.
[It should be important to note that self-selection is at play; Han members are likely much more liberal. But selection is also true of Uyghurs; many speakers within XJ come from the North and emphasize a degree of Han-ification, yet also speak of their fear]
( @nyrola, public activist) talking about notion of privilege in the conversation—she is there, she says, because of her privilege in going to college, speaking fluent Mandarin, being able to live abroad. What of those Uyghurs without this voice [without an iPhone, even?].
she continues—if China wants to fight terrorism, why must they also detain innocent people? Do not these detainees not also have their friends or families to take care of, or have had their families and friends taken? In this way, everyone in a victim.
E, living abroad—reminds people to be cautious about revealing personal information, having seen some on twitter already. Wants people to keep themselves safe (and observers to be cognizant of the safety issue)
F, Han who grew up in XJ—talks about being moved reading a BBC report last year and talked about it online. That night, police came to her parents in XJ. Her mom was asked to go off with police and she lost contact with her for [a week?] + later they came and searched her father.
G, Han from XJ—Says this is the 1st time they've heard "concentration camp" used, and it's difficult for them. Thinks ethnic integration was pretty good pre-2009. talks about memory of 7/5 incident and crackdown, and how XJ changed, and how now they feel things going overboard
̦—continues to say it makes them really sad to see. Also briefly mentions that they do think it's important to do counter-terrorism work for the sake of everyone's safety.
[Missed one because bathroom, sorry 
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H, Han abroad—brings discussion back to language rights. Importance of language maintenance for identity and culture—chokes up recounting another speaker’s fear of losing their culture. Pushes people like themself to not become numb to the problem
—Talks abt Uyghur friend once telling them of the stricter searches they’d go thru on returning to China, thinking that already was strange, to say nothing of now. Quotes JFK [i think?] in English—“All that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men and women to do nothing”
I, Han—Expresses how moved they have been by the hours-long conversation at this point. Stresses importance of empathizing with marginalized groups; Han elsewhere, too, can be in the minority, they remind Han listeners—universal support for minorities is both just + logical.
References earlier speaker who justified XJ camps re: Euro camps. Says it's a common fallacy but there's a huge dif btwn Cn & Euro bc they have completely separate political systems/standards. System like Cn where we can't discuss system and circumstances openly is "arrogant"
J, Han from XJ abroad—returned to XJ a few years ago for awhile, felt the suppression, e.g. re: phones getting searched on the street. Talks about all the controlling measures, and how Han like her were annoyed they had to go thru some, too, but still supported for Uyghurs
Says many of her Han friends have fled because of the stifling atmosphere that made it unbearable for them
K, Uyghur—pushes back against idea that problems originated circa 7/5 incident. Explains background of the Shaoguan Incident, talks about violence against Uyghurs not covered in Chinese media and double standard applied to violence: if Uyghurs do it, it's terrorism, but not Han
Expresses extreme distaste with "Not all Uyghurs are terrorists" as a phrase—it's loaded and the implication is Uyghurs still have inherent predilection to terrorism, but govt won't call Han acts terrorism, which calls into question basis of the phrase itself
[interjecting to note: that at this point, the convo has been going on for hours, and it has made some nationalists, e.g. 兔主席 on Weibo, very unhappy, according to previous speakers. while these opinions are important, it would be a mistake to extrapolate them to all of China]
L, Mongolian: as a "so-called model minority" they emotionally state that it doesn't matter bad things people from a certain group have done, and that they themselves feel a sense of guilt. Thanks everyone for sharing their stories.
M/N—I got a bit lost, but a discussion between two speakers about nature of ethnic autonomy and # of ethnic cadres in XJ. N pushes back I think against M, noting talks about history of Urumqi and how the government deliberately moved Uyghurs from the city center outwards.
O—First, encourages speakers to use weiwuer not weizu, latter has a united front feel. Makes six points: 1 We can’t use terror/fear defeat terrorism 2 Muslim countries more concerned with Chinese $ than Uyghurs 3 [Mic cuts out for me] 4 The camps are extralegal and absurd bc—
the camps are extralegal and absurd because they are for pre-crimes 5 Most concentration camps weren’t for mass murder/genocide; don’t think that bc these aren’t death camps that they aren’t concentration camps. 6 What can we do? Three types of courage: first, resist/protest—
—but that is by far the hardest. If you can't, 2 Don’t encourage or partake in things tainted by the camp system. At the very least, 3 don’t let Uyghurs kids grow up in an atmosphere of fear; shield them to the extent you can
P, Han abroad—says this is the first day they heard about specifics of 7/5. 2011/12 roommate's BF was in the military, dispatched to build in XJ. first thoughts were "oh, beautiful people and food"—not aware of problems there. now thinking abt how that BF might have been built—
bldgs that are camps. Talks about caution of even writing her opinions on Chinese apps nowadays. Scolds Han who have listened to stories of Uyghurs who have had relatives taken away and thinking it's all okay.
Moderater emphasizes that Han should not feel guilty per se, all of them are there as compatriots and friends and must strive for a better society.
annnnd we have switched to a Western English speaker who previously referred to evidence for the existence of camps as sparse. Also thrilled that the Han are so well read, it'd be great if they were in the Politburo. So that's a thing.
@ other white dudes—this is not our conversation. Listening > speaking, particularly if we are going to speak in English when the past eight hours have been entirely in Mandarin??
Q, Han—tears up as they thank the speakers and listeners. Says they feel very encouraged at others who have harbored similar "dissident" thoughts and feelings. Talks about friends who've disappeared around the time the camps opened, unsure of where they are or what has happened
R, Han—Working once, in the bathroom, overheard Uyghur coworker talking about afraid they were to contact their friend. Tearing up, they recounnt the Uyghur friends in XJ, and has lost contact with them. Says fellow Han can sympathize but not "understand". Told this story:
I unfortunately have to run, but I will add more notes if I'm able to return to the room. If you want to enter on Clubhouse, you have to be following sb. in a certain room for that room to appear on your feed. Mods include @/vincent040 and @/zhaolewisliu; room is 新疆有个集中营？
returning to this, it looks like the tenor of the room has changed somewhat. Most recent speaker, who is Han, notes that while they believe the camps exist, there are details that leave them unsure what to believe. Also thinks that other Han saying the conversation makes them—
—feel guilty/apologetic isn't reasonable; this person, who lives abroad, has been called racial slurs by whites but knows not all whites need not feel guilty about that.
S, Han—talks about how they changed from a "little pink" to a much more liberal outlook today over the last 3-4 years: a "breakdown" of their thought, which has been very stressful and caused problems with her family. Hearing about Xinjiang has made them distraught—so they want
—to emphasize (in response to a previous speaker who had stated many of the Han speakers earlier had made them lose hope) that it is possible to change and recognize the problem and empathize, even if you are very nationalistic.
Tearfully encourages everyone to persevere; Uyghur moderator interjects with words of comfort and encourages them not to feel they are responsible.
T, Uyghur abroad—mic is kind of fuzzy and they're speaking fast, but they're pushing back against idea that good feeling between individuals from dif. ethnic groups means the problem doesn't exist; it is systematic and related to government policy.
. @BangXiao_ discusses the Stolen Generation in Australia as it relates to aboriginal rights, and moreover how the oppression of aboriginals by one's long-dead ancestors does not mean white Aussies are free from culpability/obligation re: aboriginal ppl
Some discussion about terminology—concentration camps (集中营) evoke the Holocaust, but another speaker rejoins that reeducation 在教育 itself also carries a viewpoint, namely, one oriented around the Han
U, Han abroad—brings up "emotional labor" and thanks the moderators for explaining their experiences in the face of sometimes testy interlocutors. Encourages other Chinese abroad to take the relative freedom to speak with others.
Then talks about al-Jazeera, which also reports on XJ—it's not all western media. Fellow Han should take any feelings of guilt and try to turn it into action. Brings up @chinese4uyghurs
annnd Western English guy is back. Asking what Western countries can do, and asking why China doesn't like ethnic autonomy.
Moderator responds—foreign governments can apply pressure, but they're not doing enough, noting Eng, Can. have avoided harsh wording like genocide; moderator thinks this should change. Western countries failing on XJ negates their professed support for human rights/democracy
Specifically, mod states countries need to all be sanctioning the Xinjiang Production & Construction Corps. Also states people should boycott the Olympics.
[Note that, again, this group is self-selecting. Its moderators include Uyghurs themselves, and naturally, they kick out people like this] https://twitter.com/ThisIsWenhao/status/1358248694429212673?s=20
V, Han abroad—says they are a Xtian& want to talk from a faith perspective, not just a political one. Religion can brainwash ppl (faith cannot, tho) &thus threaten the state, thus hostility from the govt. Says they love China but it's changed so much, they feel they can't return.
H, Han abroad who spoke a few hours ago—again talks about linguistic diversity and maintenance, and thanks the Uyghur speakers in particular for being willing to share their trauma with so many people
W, Han abroad who describes themself as fairly conservative. Notes having read 《我的西域，你的东土》. asks Uyghurs what their long-term vision is for the future of XJ, andd "under what circumstance can you live peacefully with other ethnic groups" (not combatively)
X, Hui—I think a story about someone's detention, but don't quote me on that. their mic has been cutting and out for me and it looks like their connection dropped
Mod says relations are two-way: Uyghurs need to be not locked up + Han need to be more understanding. W re-clarifies their question: given the historical issues in the region, they want to understand what needs to happen for the conflict that has been in the region to alleviate
Mod mentions democratization and the right to self-determination. Notes Han, Kazakhs etc also included in this hypothetical independence—if ppl use peaceful voting measures to resolve, it would be ideal, but also UN involvement might be necessary [for the status quo?]
[It seems like people are kind of talking past each other here right now regarding W's question; I think W is having trouble understanding the problem Uyghurs might have with the squo even absent mass internment, given the stability and econ. growth.]
Y, Han abroad—talks about how they didnt believe reports at first, but then met one of the [Uyghur] mods in the same country & realized "oh, wow, people's families are really disappearing." Doesn't think counter-terror is sufficient justification; it's important, but to a limit.
[And the mods are going to bring it to a close, it sounds like; there isn't anyone lined up to speech. Here's to hoping this sort of conversation can continue in the future.]
[disclaimer: I typed notes as fast as my lil sausage fingers could manage, but other stuff was going on around me, I am not a native speaker, etc.—in all likelihood, I misheard things. Generally just ignored sth. if I wasn't sure about the context or what was being said. <3]
also @ other white people: even if you're a ~critical race theory~ skeptic, it should be easy to see that this is like THE definition of "not our conversation"—it is by and for ppl from China, on an issue that impacts almost none of us. for the love of god, keep that in mind.
so if you just absolutely MUST ask a question or say something, it better be downright enlightening, because by nature of this app you or I speaking means someone with likely much more direct experience and stake in the circumstances cannot at that time. xoxoxo
addendum, a follower sent this site to me, seems like an excellent option if you are looking for resources in Mandarin https://www.talkaboutxinjiang.com/
Relatedly, there’s an entire room now with several hundred people discussing the risks of using the app for those in China, whether or not anyone has been contacted by police so far, & about nationalists like @ChairmanRabbit whining on Weibo that the app as “anti-China”, etc.
The room is hosted by @badiucao . A lot of people worried about security forced and what would happen if they were “invited to tea” (when police informally bring you in and tell you to stop what you’re doing and so on).
No one who has spoken so far seems to have been invited for tea, but of course if you had been, you probably wouldn’t turn right back around and continue to talk about it.
Anyways I’m not gonna live tweet this or anything, I just think it’s important to note that a) the risk is there, at least as perceived by users in the mainland I have heard from and b) no one thinks the MSS is about to burst in and decapitate anyone who is on the app
