There’s a Chinese language Clubhouse room on the Xinjiang camps right now.

Some fantastically candid things being said. One woman asked, earnestly, how to handle the sense of offense, her instinctive defensiveness, as a Han person confronted with allegations and evidence of the atrocity. Absent so far is any overt denial or apologism.

To be sure, there's skepticism and a lot of watering-down and defensiveness – "Well, isn't it right to try to prevent a 9/11?" and the like – but anything nudging people into more of a shared reality I count as a victory.

I suspect that more of this kind of discussion – which alas is not likely to last – are as important to changing the minds that matter as Magnitsky sanctions, entity lists, and cotton boycotts.

Let's remember that many participants are overseas – in North America, in Europe, outside of the PRC in Greater China. And iPhone users skew urban, cosmopolitan, and less nationalistic – real patriots in China use Huawei, Xiaomi, and Oppo right? Still, this is encouraging.

Third-generation Xinjiang-born Han guy now in the U.S. speaking now. Witness to July '09 riot. Talking about (Han) victims of violence. Says he opposes coercive excesses (of camps) but that he supports general anti-terrorist crackdown – most defensive thing I've heard so far.

Lots of pretty emotional (and critical) responses to that guy – one Xinjiang native now providing background context, on the lynching (yes @JimMillward) in Shaoguan.

Now there's a Uyghur woman in Sweden talking about her family's experience in the camps. Moderators are doing their best to give Uyghurs as much airtime as possible. One troll keeps interrupting but being kicked.

She's been written about in the press. Describes herself as very "Han-ified" and very western, as his her family, and secular, but this has not prevented her family from being interred.

Han multi-generational Xinjiang resident (F) saying that re-education camps were present prior to 2009. More trolls interrupting: moderators had been too lax about inviting people on stage, now cracking down.

A lot of anecdotes being shared: One woman who studied in Beijing says in 2018 her Pakistani friend was crying because her mother, a foreign national who "looked Uyghur," was detained in Xinijang (where she'd lived for many years) and had passport seized.

A woman asking a question as to why 22 countries criticized China for Xinjiang in the UN, and 37 countries defended China – but why were so many of the 37 defenders Muslim-majority countries?

Anecdote just now: a Han guy in a WeChat group had a (Han) friend in Urumqi, asked about whether news of the re-education/concentration camps was true, and his tepid remark affirming got him detained for (I think it was) 10 days.

Great spiel from a woman now talking about Han denial and the phenomenon of "Hansplaining," and the importance of confronting uncomfortable truths.

Guy saying he checked the Google Earth-based claims about camps, verified that the facilities absolutely are there, but believes Zenz and others have overestimated numbers – emphasizes he doesn't deny existence of camps.

That guy says he believes they've included nearby non-camp facilities in calculations of size/capacity of camps.

Important point being made about the massive differences between northern Xinjiang 北疆 and southern Xinjiang 南疆 – and how anecdotes from Chinese people from the north, where fewer have been detained, should be heard with this in mind.

Great point made just now: speaker discourages emphasizing how secular you or your family are, as Uyghurs, because it only lends force to the argument that internment because of religiosity is in some way legitimate.

Same speaker made a perhaps more controversial suggestion: that minzu policy under Mao was better, because it explicitly rejected great Han chauvinism, and a colonial mindset emerged during Reform era.

Prominent Uyghur American activist talking about how to be a Uyghur ally; relates story of a Chinese friend in US who says Xinjiang situation "isn't my battle," and discounts NYTimes reporting – while also frequently dismissing Chinese reporting. (This is something I see often!)

Pretty full-blown apologist being given airtime now: "The real enemy is terrorism;" "China has offered the UNHCR access to the camps;" "Here are the ways other companies (e.g. France) respond to terrorism;" "Let's be respectful about diet;" "Isn't education a good response?"

She's been shouted down, compared to Hua Chunying (FM spokesperson). "As a Han person I can't listen to any more of this!"

It was a ghastly little intervention. Literally said that terrorism is war, and in a time of war, human rights have to be suspended. Read Sean Roberts, "The War on the Uyghurs." It's really, really good on how the GWOT discourse laid groundwork for this atrocity.

Very emotional, tearful profession of 'Han guilt' by a participant now – response by a Uyghur man assuring this woman that we are friends, and this atrocity makes the need for friendship even more important. That was a lovely moment.

I have to say, though this moment may be fleeting, it really does give me hope, to see so many heartfelt responses from Han people. I renounce my earlier cynicism about this app. It's pretty wonderful.

Please read this excellent piece from one of the participants in this Clubhouse talk. https://matters.news/@humarisaac/%E9%9D%A2%E5%AF%B9%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%E5%8D%B1%E6%9C%BA-%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA-2020-%E5%B9%B4%E7%9A%84%E6%99%AE%E9%80%9A%E4%BA%BA%E5%8F%AF%E4%BB%A5%E5%81%9A%E4%BA%9B%E4%BB%80%E4%B9%88-bafyreihqhzf7ftc3riqankg6biyqcalej7pidhgx4l2zpeih33s72rknwu

Handing off live-tweeting to the fabulous @diaodiao_yang . Please follow for more updates on this truly historic conversation!

The inimitable @BadChinaTake took up the banner when I had to attend to quotidian details of life, and his great recapping is here: https://twitter.com/BadChinaTake/status/1358186255981416450?s=20