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I don't wanna get involved in anymore discourse
It's really made MDZS not fun for me.
It's been like a while and I'm still upset (or maybe just depressed+) for a variety of reasons.
Even hornee pornee isn't helping.
It's really made MDZS not fun for me.
It's been like a while and I'm still upset (or maybe just depressed+) for a variety of reasons.
Even hornee pornee isn't helping.
I don't want to start anymore discourse. But I do hope we talk about how much microaggression there is towards Asian Diaspora in this fandom.
From all/a lot of different sides.
I'm just feeling bruised emotionally.
From all/a lot of different sides.
I'm just feeling bruised emotionally.
You can message me for the whole, entire, strangled metaphor, but here's the context for this tweet: https://twitter.com/ShuFlyPie26/status/1339753282042904576?s=20
I've been in North America since I was a child, I regularly feel very "banana"; I can pick out Chinese characters but I'm by no means a fluent reader. I lost my mother tongue because I didn't want to be Chinese growing up--I would have rather been Japanese or Korean because,
unlike anime or kpop, which white people liked if not admired, no one liked Chinese media. Even when I tried to be interested in Chinese media, it was a constant reminder that I am, for many traditionalists, a failure--even now, I'm not out as genderqueer to anyone, because that
option isn't available to me as an Asian AFAB, or even just queer to my family, because I am an older daughter, and I have responsibilities and duties. My family also isn't true Han Chinese--I'm a hodgepodge who is visibly Manchu (so much so I regularly get directed to the
terminals to the Northeastern Cities when I'm in the Beijing Airport, because I look very "heavy northeastern gal" and I speak with a very distinct northeastern accent). I'm fat, which I have never seen represented by another Asian, and I'm mentally ill, which is deeply taboo.
My attempts at reconnecting with my culture has always ended terribly. I have a complicated, difficult relationship with my family, both immediate and extended. My Chinese Literature professor in undergrad was a white man ("with a Chinese wife" he liked to tell us); even now,
in a PhD, I am studying Chinese Diasporic literature in English, as a part of the English Literature department, under the supervision of another queer woc who lost our mother tongue. I cannot fully describe the complicated emotions that come from having to google your own
heritage, (re)learning and validating everything, including your own life experiences. I took my second language requirement in French, because I am far more fluent in it (as a Canadian) than I am in the language of my own family; because it is easier for me to talk about the
different translations from Chinese to various western languages, than the original. Even now, I regularly gaslight myself, double-, triple- checking anything I say or do because I don't want to make a mistake because I constantly feel wrong--it becomes a stain on your very
identity, this inability to fit in anywhere.
Then I found MDZS. First through the manhua, then the donghua, the novel, and finally CQL. (Did I mention I only found the manhua because I was on manga websites, because I was/am a dweeb because it was easier liking Japanese media?)
Then I found MDZS. First through the manhua, then the donghua, the novel, and finally CQL. (Did I mention I only found the manhua because I was on manga websites, because I was/am a dweeb because it was easier liking Japanese media?)
Finding MDZS was actually lifechanging.
Queer Chinese people! A Purple Robed (my favourite colour!) Tsundere who can be read as Ace (like me!) to adopt as my comfort character! An entire sect of sabre wielding tough men who seem to be heavily coded to be from the Northeast! Whose
Queer Chinese people! A Purple Robed (my favourite colour!) Tsundere who can be read as Ace (like me!) to adopt as my comfort character! An entire sect of sabre wielding tough men who seem to be heavily coded to be from the Northeast! Whose
main characters' song was sung by Ayanga, a singer of Mongol ethnicity!
At that time, I was most excited that The Untamed was on Netflix. That it was liked (even popular!) amongst non-Chinese fans. Finally! I had never had cool Chinese media before!
Even now, I push it to my
At that time, I was most excited that The Untamed was on Netflix. That it was liked (even popular!) amongst non-Chinese fans. Finally! I had never had cool Chinese media before!
Even now, I push it to my
non-Chinese friends, to their friends, to my professors, to basically everyone because I've never been able to. I love it when they like The Untamed too; I love it when they read the novel (in translation, just like me, so we can talk about it like we're reading the same edition
of a book). I love the fan content generated, that was actually the original reason I joined this platform.
I regularly make jokes that, as a demi/cupioromantic asexual, I am just incapable of love (because i deal with my insecurities with self-deprecating humour) but I love
I regularly make jokes that, as a demi/cupioromantic asexual, I am just incapable of love (because i deal with my insecurities with self-deprecating humour) but I love
deeply and passionately and entirely.
And I love this fandom.
This is the first time I felt like I had media that was mine--played by people like me, representing people like me--and that it was deserving of love. There are complications, imperfections, because nothing is
And I love this fandom.
This is the first time I felt like I had media that was mine--played by people like me, representing people like me--and that it was deserving of love. There are complications, imperfections, because nothing is
free of flaws, but I love it. And I got to meet other people like me who love it too. There is this amazing community of English speaking, largely diasporic, community! I've never had that before.
This media became home. Even as I dabble and read other books and media, I come
This media became home. Even as I dabble and read other books and media, I come
back. Because I am nothing if not filial.
The best part was that we got to share it with people who otherwise never would have know about it, or about us. Chinese media was finally cool; we got to invite other people to join us and, even better, they wanted to come!
The best part was that we got to share it with people who otherwise never would have know about it, or about us. Chinese media was finally cool; we got to invite other people to join us and, even better, they wanted to come!
I've been using this metaphor of a house party to describe this fandom; We (many of whom are Chinese Diaspora) who have found a home in this fandom wanting to welcome people in, wanting to host them, wanting to share what we have. Sometimes a weird puritan minor slip in (that's
a fun reference to the 
s), but we try to explain when we can and gently shuffle them out of the party when we can't. We try to be good hosts. I'm regularly awed by the amount of time, effort, research, and vulnerability folks share in this fandom. This stuff used to be uncool,
s), but we try to explain when we can and gently shuffle them out of the party when we can't. We try to be good hosts. I'm regularly awed by the amount of time, effort, research, and vulnerability folks share in this fandom. This stuff used to be uncool,
(again, I used to not want to be Chinese) but now it's hosting this huge party. There are so many cool guests, so many respectful visitors, so many new friends!
Not everything is going to be the same; this isn't western media. Sometimes we have different rules (like, please don't
Not everything is going to be the same; this isn't western media. Sometimes we have different rules (like, please don't
endanger our actors even if it's all in good fun on the internet because there are authoritarian governments! please realize there is a different epistemological basis to the mythos in the diegetic media!). Sometimes those are actively harmful (I appreciate the
desexualized media because I sometimes dissociate because I'm so ace, but that doesn't change how uplifting asexualized media can still be harmful when it's part of this homophobic censorship. There is a long and problematic history of prejudice, especially colourism, etc.) but
lots of families have a problematic relative (just look at the cast of any western sitcom) and we can discuss those problematics and hopefully unpack them and build towards solutions and futures that are better! Discourse can be productive! We can show how diverse and different
we are even within the community!
This is a cool house because the foundations were built for people like us! Asian people got the decorate and curate and build it further! Now everyone at the party is contributing things! It's like a potluck (and, in my experience, most of us,
This is a cool house because the foundations were built for people like us! Asian people got the decorate and curate and build it further! Now everyone at the party is contributing things! It's like a potluck (and, in my experience, most of us,
and most Asians, love potlucks). There are plenty of areas to explore, and build!
This place is special because so much Asian media, even recent media, is centred around Asianness in narrow ways, usually straightness (most c-media, Crazy Rich Asians, To All the Boys I've Loved
This place is special because so much Asian media, even recent media, is centred around Asianness in narrow ways, usually straightness (most c-media, Crazy Rich Asians, To All the Boys I've Loved
Before), or Non-Asianness (The Half of It, which I adore So Much, focuses on how she's the Rare Asian in a white small town). Sometimes you get a family film (The Farewell, which was shot in Changchun hurt me like an ache, and I love it so much). But good luck finding a single
piece of media that has All of the Above.
You know when people get frustrated that people cast XZ and WYB as Every Character in chinese bl novel adaptations? Well, that's because CQL is probably the only (if not one of the Few) pieces of media they've consumed.
You know when people get frustrated that people cast XZ and WYB as Every Character in chinese bl novel adaptations? Well, that's because CQL is probably the only (if not one of the Few) pieces of media they've consumed.
This place is special! This media is special! I got to pitch it differently to different people as I tried to get them interested! There's a boarding school arc! There are zombies! There's a muder mystery! It's So Queer!
If CRA and ATBILB and THOI were temporary homes, this is
If CRA and ATBILB and THOI were temporary homes, this is
my first real house! And currently there's a party, and we got to invite everyone, and I want to be a good host!
I don't want to gatekeep; I want to share the joy that this space has brought me. I want everyone to be welcomed here. Just, please, remember how special it is.
I don't want to gatekeep; I want to share the joy that this space has brought me. I want everyone to be welcomed here. Just, please, remember how special it is.
The posts after this point will contain things about the most recent Discourse I had been tangentially involved in.
I'm sure I won't be able to perfectly articulate everything, that's why I left this thread open for responses/retweets/comments. I want this to be an open
I'm sure I won't be able to perfectly articulate everything, that's why I left this thread open for responses/retweets/comments. I want this to be an open
discussion done in good faith; I would like to be able to clarify my statements if anything has been unclear, and I'm always open to more education. Right now, this thread is just a raw nerve.
Alright,
So,
CW: Discourse and antisemitism and racism and microaggressions
Alright,
So,
CW: Discourse and antisemitism and racism and microaggressions
I'm not going to recall all of the events; I viewed myself as a moderating speaker, but I have my own positionalities and biases and I would rather people read all of the different sides and decide for themselves, contextualized with the newest updates and statements.
I am going to do my best to be as specific with my language as possible, and use "European descended Jewish people" because it isn't my place to speak over actual voices. I may occasionally slip or change my usage, because most of the Jewish friends I have in real life do
identify as white and I've gotten used to parsing out the nuances with them with these paradigms in place.
This might be partially because they are aware of the nuances of my family; my being a racialized person who also happen to have in-laws who are Chinese Jews (again, it's
This might be partially because they are aware of the nuances of my family; my being a racialized person who also happen to have in-laws who are Chinese Jews (again, it's
a complicated thing), and how they can never pass for anything but Chinese, and thus racialized and can never be white-passing. I want to lay out these minute details because I want to clarify the language; I don't want to play oppression Olympics, I want to be able to
foreground each issue separately and examine their relationality with the nuances they deserve; it doesn't do anyone any favours to pretend everything is equivalent, especially when people do exist at the intersections of multiple identities.
For many of the Chinese Diaspora who grew up in the West, especially in very WASP-y areas, we've found community and solidarity with Jewish friends; I made a joke that we were all going to end up in the same restaurants on Christmas (though, Covid, so maybe not). This past
discourse really hurt for a multitude of reasons, not in the least of which is the fact I can't even talk about it to one of my best friends outside of the fandom because he's Jewish and I don't know if I can contextualize it properly and I don't want to misconstrue an argument,
and there's a little part of me that is afraid we'll end up fighting as well. I've also been trying to get him into MDZS, and what if he check out all of the discourse and misunderstands and doesn't even give it a chance? I just want to share the joy of this houseparty.
This houseparty metaphor doesn't work nearly as well for this discourse, since I don't think thoughts and ideas and culture could fully be comparable to objects, but I'm trying.
This most recent round of discourse realy feel like, after the Asian Diaspora hosts have already been running around, trying to put out fires and making sure glasses aren't being broken and the furniture isn't being covered in spills, came across someone who was altering
something that was really important. In the context of this house party, it has become a communal space, and things were brought out for people to play with; but this thing was really special to some of the hosts, because most people already don't know much about the Diaspora
and it was one of the really cool things we got to share and show off, and we were protective of it. And, like, yeah, there are people who are part of both groups, but maybe this is a change they might want to make, but we'd really rather you didn't. And then more stuff
came out, and things were said in the heat of the moment, without being thought through, without fully actualizing the implications. And hurtful stuff was said, which hurt people, some of whom were there, and some of whom were elsewhere in the party; it got amplified so it was
also heard by people who misunderstood, people who didn't realize it was hurtful, people acting in bad faith. Those hurtful things shouldn't have been said, regardless of whether it was unintentional or done of ignorance; everyone deserve to feel safe and welcome and happy at
this party. The hurt and reaction are valid, and no one should feel like they have to stay here, or interact with people they don't want to. We mean it when we say everyone is welcome here, even if people want to separate, or come back later, or however is healthiest for them.
Perhaps it's my timeline, but I've seen a lot of attempts to apologize and make amends; it's up to the people hurt to decide if it's enough, if they accept, if they want to come back. We, as hosts, are going to keep the door open. I don't want to gatekeep. Everyone should be
welcomed here and, more importantly, feel like they are welcomed here.
Because this is a house made up of a lot of misfits, who know how rare and precious it is for something like this to be liked and built up.
But, sometimes, it feels like being the host means
Because this is a house made up of a lot of misfits, who know how rare and precious it is for something like this to be liked and built up.
But, sometimes, it feels like being the host means
folding yourself up as small as possible, to make it enjoyable and good for everyone else at the cost of yourself, and to not disturb the pease of those having a good time. Everyone thinks you're in charge but you're outnumbered and, honestly, in a fragile position;
as Chinese Diaspora, you're not actually part of the dominant hegemonic majority that made this, this is just the first home that you got that was your own, but it sometimes feel more like you're renting because you only partially belong. In trying to be a good host, you've
neglected yourself, and no one sees the ways they've also hurt you. And now it feels like everyone is telling you you're a bad host, that you've done the wrong thing, even though you're still recoiling from trying to hold on to this one thing that was really special to you even
though you brought out almost everything to share. I've spent the past couple of days joking that i'm just making hornee pornee food for everyone still around the party, trying to deflect, but I just feel so sad and so tired and surprisingly alone because I have my other diaspora
folks but it kinda feel like we're just there to help people around this house that we curated and decorated and we're just hosts/butlers now that we've opened it up for be a communal space.
But, like, before this was a party, this was my home.
But, like, before this was a party, this was my home.
I'm not packing up my toy and leaving, nor am I kicking everyone out of the party; I just want to feel like I'm welcome and happy in a home that was actually made for me (I've never had that before). It's all I have and I've shared it and I just don't want anything to break.
I think what I'm struggling with are these feelings of ... discardment ? Lack of care or solidarity? Like I'm not actually wanted in this fandom?
It feels like people like the media, and they like it when we are good resources. But while they like the party and the house, they
It feels like people like the media, and they like it when we are good resources. But while they like the party and the house, they
don't actually like (or, perhaps, care about) those of us actually living here. I don't think it's a lot of fun when the hosts don't get to sit down and join in on the party.
I'm just saying it would have been nice if someone had gone, "hey, why don't you tell us about this really important thing to you and why you're so protective of it", or invited people to share and work together and help uplift specifically Chinese Jewish voices (who were hurt
in multiple ways) to talk about the bridges that could have been built in solidarity. It would have been nice if people acknowledged how this space is international and diasporic, that we don't share the same historical or cultural knowledge and that our ability to generate the
specificity of our own knowledge (much of which is consumed, extracted, and given without charge) might mean we're not as informed about others. Not every home is the same; we've opened up ours, in good faith, and we just wanted that good faith reciprocated.
The Asians in this fandom, specifically the Diasporic Chinese, have dealt with a lot of microaggressions. It certainly isn't helped when we all disagree / have nuances, and we're then pitted against each other, or with other marginalized groups.
These past few days have just been really tough for me because it felt like my hurt (and my community's hurt) didn't matter. I feel like one of those bowing stereotypes going "yes, you're right, we're sorry, sorry, sorry, this community does have a lot of problems, sorry".
I'm an academic; I discourse for a living. (I also teach and grade, which I am now terribly behind on.) I believe in the power of communication and solidarity and community building. But I've just felt so much resistence, and Twitter isn't a great conduit for nuance.
I believe in bringing people in; that there is room for education and changing minds and growth. I'm (sometimes unhealthily) willing to give second, third, fourth chances. I love sharing this space and my culture which I am able to reconnect with.
I'm just asking to please listen when I say something hurts me and my community; or to act in good faith when I try to offer reconciliation. We have traumas and histories too.
