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How I came to value relationships over money: a @threadapalooza thread
Prompt: https://twitter.com/kureshii_/status/1337717674046996483
Prompt: https://twitter.com/kureshii_/status/1337717674046996483
1/ Where to start ... from influences I guess.
My biggest and earliest influence is my mom.
The first thing you should know about my mom is that she is a hub. Connections naturally form around her. She has a way of getting people to open up about their situation and needs.
My biggest and earliest influence is my mom.
The first thing you should know about my mom is that she is a hub. Connections naturally form around her. She has a way of getting people to open up about their situation and needs.
2/ My mom's side of the family is 50+ people, including my family. More than half of them live in Malaysia, to our north. But for work and other reasons they travel regularly to Singapore, and vice-versa.
My eldest uncle is our hub in Malaysia.
My eldest uncle is our hub in Malaysia.
3/ My grandma is staying with him, and on the way to Singapore or just when in the area, we would all pop in to catch up, drop off stuff, pick up stuff, etc.
My mom is the hub in Singapore. If you just need to crash for a few days while meeting a friend or biz partner.
My mom is the hub in Singapore. If you just need to crash for a few days while meeting a friend or biz partner.
4/ Things in the house were frequently fluid. My siblings and I frequently gave up our rooms to visitors while we slept in the study, or my parents’ room, or even pulled futons out in the living room.
There’s a kind of cosiness to it, but also a sort of deprivation
There’s a kind of cosiness to it, but also a sort of deprivation
5/ which led me to dream of one day buying a house big enough for everyone. I was still a kid then. But more of that later.
These connections were valuable in the pre-internet days, when information and resources were harder to come by.
These connections were valuable in the pre-internet days, when information and resources were harder to come by.
6/ We used to have to do these reports or other assignments by hand. Typing and printing text on a dot matrix printer was easy enough. But graphics ... we had to painstakingly search through magazines and cut them out by hand!
It’s rare that you often had everything you need
It’s rare that you often had everything you need
7/ My mom made do with whatever we had, and what we didn’t have, she would try to source from neighbours.
It didn’t take long for neighbours who were previously strangers to start getting connected through my mom. As a SAH mom, she would be on the phone often.
It didn’t take long for neighbours who were previously strangers to start getting connected through my mom. As a SAH mom, she would be on the phone often.
8/ It sounded like a lot of gossip to me as a child, and I often didn’t like the snatches of conversation I overheard, especially when she codeswitched to dialect to avert our prying ears.
But later I recognised this as the cost of community building.
But later I recognised this as the cost of community building.
9/ Things were harder in the very early years, when my parents were both working and staying in a rental apartment. My aunts often came over to help out with taking care of me then.
10/ These were days when she was a teacher in Malaysia. She was travelling by bus every day, walking across the 1km causeway joining both our countries while pregnant with me.
Hard to imagine how it would have turned out without the extra hands.
Hard to imagine how it would have turned out without the extra hands.
11/ My earliest taste of this community was the reunion dinner on Chinese New Year Eve, when all the families would make the trip to have dinner with my grandma. The atmosphere was always cordial, even when there was conflict between some members.
12/ It is especially striking that traditionally, families would have the reunion dinner with the fathers’ side of the family, then have a separate dinner with the mothers’ side.
But in my mom’s side of the family, the agreement to have dinner with my grandma was unanimous.
But in my mom’s side of the family, the agreement to have dinner with my grandma was unanimous.
13/ Consider that my grandma gave birth to 8 daughters and 2 sons.
That forms the basis of my beliefs about community. And now, about money.
That forms the basis of my beliefs about community. And now, about money.
14/ As a young, withdrawn, socially awkward kid, this was often overwhelming. I think I was a constant source of concern for my mom and aunts alike.
My earliest goals revolved around having a place of my own, to get away from it all. Pretty common in land-starved Singapore.
My earliest goals revolved around having a place of my own, to get away from it all. Pretty common in land-starved Singapore.
15/ The cost of this are not inconsiderable. Today, the price of a government-built apartment ranges from 374k to 598k for a decent-sized 1000 sq ft unit, but goes above that in high-demand areas.
And you have to be >=35yo to buy your own if you’re single
And you have to be >=35yo to buy your own if you’re single
16/ Many of my childhood plans revolved around how to earn and save money. It was always a consideration. We were not poor by any means, probably quite comfortably middle-class,
17/ but as the eldest of 5 kids, I subconsciously absorbed our financial reality and understood that any niceties—overseas grad trips, learning journeys, or exchange programs—would entail a significant burden on my parents (and reduce opportunities for younger siblings)
18/ After graduating from junior college (high school equivalent), I was conscripted for 2 years of service. By some stroke of luck, I landed in cadet school.
Our trainers took every chance he could to school us about the realities we would face.
Our trainers took every chance he could to school us about the realities we would face.
19/ My sergeant major second-in-command, explaining the financial difficulties that many of our men would come to us with, told us that his life experience says the minimum income you need to comfortable raise a kid is about 2.2k/mo (this and above currencies in US equivalent)
20/ I was aware my dad made more than that, but ... maybe about double? How was he raising 5 kids?
I later learnt that the cost can be 3k, but for families with fewer resources it can be double of that just to raise 2 kids!
I later learnt that the cost can be 3k, but for families with fewer resources it can be double of that just to raise 2 kids!
21/ After finishing my 2 years of service, I applied to an undergrad programme in aerospace engineering.
I had my bank loan all signed, ready to begin my studies. I could have loaned from my dad’s CPF (the national forced-savings scheme) and paid back at a lower rate of
I had my bank loan all signed, ready to begin my studies. I could have loaned from my dad’s CPF (the national forced-savings scheme) and paid back at a lower rate of
22/ 2.5%pa (vs 4.75%pa for a regular study loan), but he was a migrant (his family is Malaysia-based) and he didn’t have much in it.
I was fiercely determined not to get any extra financial help from them.
I was fiercely determined not to get any extra financial help from them.
23/ 2 weeks before my programme was due to start, I received a call inviting me to an interview for a newly-started *bond-free* scholarship. Would I be free to head down for an interview the next day?
Two days after the interview, they called me to inform me I was accepted.
Two days after the interview, they called me to inform me I was accepted.
24/ Found myself in the enviable position of cancelling my bank loan the week before school started. I would get a stipend of 374/mo, plus allowances for textbooks and a laptop.
It was my first experience seeing money with 4 digits.
It was my first experience seeing money with 4 digits.
25/ I was at my thriftiest and most miserly in those years. I made sooo many money mistakes.
But one mistake I did not make was trying to save the money up for post-graduation. There just was not enough stipend for that!
But one mistake I did not make was trying to save the money up for post-graduation. There just was not enough stipend for that!
26/ What I could save in 4 years of undergrad, I would easily save with my first month or two of paychecks when I started work.
But I had changed too. I no longer wanted money to have a big house that could house everyone, I wanted money without too many strings attached.
But I had changed too. I no longer wanted money to have a big house that could house everyone, I wanted money without too many strings attached.
27/ Reading many articles about burnout and midlife crises, I knew I didn’t want a job I didn’t enjoy. Two years into my undergrad studies, I changed my mind. The aerospace programme was boring and I didn’t see a future in it. On a whim, I switched to Physics.
28/ Many of my engineering academic credits couldn’t be transferred over. This meant I needed to extend my studies by one semester, to finish the remaining modules in 2.5 years.
I had to take up a small study loan to finance this.
I had to take up a small study loan to finance this.
29/ Post-graduation, I was in a kid of slump. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, and spent a few months in a slump.
The notification letter informing me of the start of my study loan repayment finally got me off my ass and seeking work.
The notification letter informing me of the start of my study loan repayment finally got me off my ass and seeking work.
30/ I still hadn't learnt much about money, except how little of it I really needed to get by.
But finally I started getting curious enough to read more about it. Kinda late at age 25; I should have started way earlier.
But finally I started getting curious enough to read more about it. Kinda late at age 25; I should have started way earlier.
31/ My reading of money wasn’t very intellectual; I was seeking a practical answer to the question “what should my relationship to money be?”, not “what exactly is money?”
One early source was the Bible, with its many contradictory sayings about money.
One early source was the Bible, with its many contradictory sayings about money.
32/ “For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.”
What’s that supposed to say? I’m still finding out, but it’s pretty clear the Bible doesn’t think it is something to be hoarded.
What’s that supposed to say? I’m still finding out, but it’s pretty clear the Bible doesn’t think it is something to be hoarded.
33/ “Ask and it shall be given; seek and ye shall find.”
You can ... ask for things? Instead of buying them? And ... you might not actually have to pay it back?
You can ... ask for things? Instead of buying them? And ... you might not actually have to pay it back?
34/ “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.”
Okay fine I am paying taxes already. But apparently there’s another kind of payment that accrues not to financial or government institutions, but to a higher purpose?
Okay fine I am paying taxes already. But apparently there’s another kind of payment that accrues not to financial or government institutions, but to a higher purpose?
35/ More reading, this time from Ray Dalio. Money doesn’t seem to be ... what everyone thinks it is! It grows, it shrinks, it behaves differently at the seeming whim and fancy of governing authorities. You can arbitrarily decide its value, but not without consequences?
36/ Back to the Bible: “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
What *is* the Bible’s shtick with riches? Didn’t get round to answering that, distracted by historiography
What *is* the Bible’s shtick with riches? Didn’t get round to answering that, distracted by historiography
37/ Huh, money is complicated ... even renouncing one’s riches in early Christian Rome can take decades?
Apparently wealth isn’t just money ... and wealthy Romans didn’t often have that much money. That wealth in the form of estate also supports the numerous servants they owned.
Apparently wealth isn’t just money ... and wealthy Romans didn’t often have that much money. That wealth in the form of estate also supports the numerous servants they owned.
38/ You can’t just liquidate everything, your servants would starve! They would get dragged off to slave auctions! You had to spend the time to find a good household for each and every one of them.
This and more in https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691152905/through-the-eye-of-a-needle
This and more in https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691152905/through-the-eye-of-a-needle
39/ So even for the rich, after you burn off the excess in wining, dining, and debauchery, ... at its baseline, it provides for people.
You can’t eat money though. If what we need is food and shelter and love, where did money come from?
You can’t eat money though. If what we need is food and shelter and love, where did money come from?
40/ Most fruitful reading so far has been from the late David Graeber’s Debt: The First 500 Years https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/198598/debt-updated-and-expanded-by-david-graeber/
41/ Up to this point I had bought into the commonly understood picture that barter trade came first, then currency, then markets.
DG says this is ass-backwards. Markets preceded money. You can trade and carry out all kinds of exchanges: with debt!
DG says this is ass-backwards. Markets preceded money. You can trade and carry out all kinds of exchanges: with debt!
42/ Debt precedes money. Most early “barter trade” was seldom equal value. People often gave a little more, to put the other party in a small sense of debt; in some cultures it was poor form to “pay back the debt” *exactly*. It meant you wanted to cut off ties!
43/ Today we recognise this as gifting culture, but this was how people traded commodities in the pre-market past too!
These were the earliest communities. People exchanging things for other things.
These were the earliest communities. People exchanging things for other things.
44/ You could have a thriving market without a single coin. The key ingredient was not money, but trust. In a small, closed community where the continued existence of relationships could be assumed, you can get work on the basis of reputation and trust.
45/ Among small communes these were not tracked, but when it had to be scaled to support commerce, written IOUs sufficed, and in fact could be traded on the reputation of the debtor alone.
(taking a break here to feed my just-woken wife)
46/ But debt didn't originate in financial form. In many cultures, it originated in social, then spiritual form, as people sought to explain the origins of relationships.
Many cultures differentiate between social and money debt.
Many cultures differentiate between social and money debt.
47/ Social debt is different from money debt. It is debt you don’t expect to repay; in some cultures this is the debt you owe to a family when you marry a wife from that family; in other cultures, it is the debt you owe to your parents for bringing you up.
48/ You can't monetise social debt, because it is highly contextualised. This caused complications historically; what happens when a member of one tribe kills a member of another tribe?
If no financial compensation is possible, the most likely outcome is a life for a life.
If no financial compensation is possible, the most likely outcome is a life for a life.
49/ What if a man from one tribe kidnaps a woman from another tribe for his wife? Is mutual kidnapping of women this way a sustainable means of exchange?
When people are ripped from their social contexts this way, they can no longer accrue social debt.
When people are ripped from their social contexts this way, they can no longer accrue social debt.
50/ They were not part of the community, and the circumstances make it difficult or impossible to be integrated. In the culture, a different class/caste is formed for them. The inability to accrue social debt turns these people into slaves.
51/ Slaves cannot build up trust or a reputation in the community. They can only be traded—with commodities, or money. Their debt, if there is one to pay off, is purely money debt.
Early people were quite clear: social connections and money are not the same, even if they mix.
Early people were quite clear: social connections and money are not the same, even if they mix.
52/ Where did money come from, then, if IOUs sufficed within a community?
It came from outside communities, then. If we look at money at state-scale, ignoring tokens used within communities, the common pattern is that it is always imposed top-down.
It came from outside communities, then. If we look at money at state-scale, ignoring tokens used within communities, the common pattern is that it is always imposed top-down.
53/ That’s because any trade or exchange still involves implicit mutual trust. When would such trust not be possible?
When warfare, and then mercenaries, entered the picture.
When warfare, and then mercenaries, entered the picture.
54/ Mercenaries are not part of any resident community. They nonetheless form part of the economy of any town or village when they pass by. Without access to social debt, reputation, or credit, the only way they could trade is with a common token of trust.
55/ This common token must necessarily come from a higher authority. Many states saw an opportunity to grow money-based markets here. By paying mercenaries in coin, and insisting that taxes be paid only in coin, they kickstart a money-based economy.
56/ This is not incompatible with debt, financial or otherwise. Where there is implicit trust between people (e.g. merchants or shopkeepers in the same guild), exchanges of credit were still used. But where this trust was not present, gold or coin had to be relied on.
57/ While social credit has its basis in social relationships, coin has its basis in the ongoing legitimacy of whoever’s face was minted on the coin. When that legitimacy collapses, so does the value of coinage.
58/ When money loans take place without implicit trust (as they often do today), debtees cannot rely on the fear of reputation loss of a debtor who might be here today and gone the next year. Guarantors, mortgages, secured loans, and other mechanisms served in its place.
59/ An ongoing servicing of debt relationships helped to cement an economy and build up interrelationships that allow much more economic activity to take place than would be possible with the use of coin alone
60/ In good times, profit is made, debt is serviced, and the economy hums along.
In times of crisis, the whole structure faces jeopardy, trust in the structure fails, and everyone seeks to first trade debt for coin, then coin for more secure stores of wealth.
In times of crisis, the whole structure faces jeopardy, trust in the structure fails, and everyone seeks to first trade debt for coin, then coin for more secure stores of wealth.
61/ Big families weather these crises better, and it is commonly understood that this is because community resources are more flexible.
But what is less obvious is that community resources are also *much cheaper*.
But what is less obvious is that community resources are also *much cheaper*.
62/ You pay more for *quality groceries*, not because they cost more to grow. They usually /cost/ the same effort! But the grocer will keep them for his family and best customers, then for strangers.
To elevate yourself to be worth the better groceries, you can pay a lot more.
To elevate yourself to be worth the better groceries, you can pay a lot more.
63/ Or you can build a relationship with the grocer. Apprentice their children, introduce him to good opportunities, and banquet his family in good times.
This often costs you little (especially if you already own an inn), but gets you much more.
This often costs you little (especially if you already own an inn), but gets you much more.
64/ Think about the kind of trust implicit in services like babysitting, wet nursing, or even caring for the elderly.
How much would you be willing to pay to have someone you trust?
How much to have someone trusted *and* who wishes for the well-being of your child/parent?
How much would you be willing to pay to have someone you trust?
How much to have someone trusted *and* who wishes for the well-being of your child/parent?
65/ Most of us can’t afford to pay for this level of service from strangers. Money != social connections. Our attempts to monetise these benefits have placed them beyond affordability.
66/ Is it possible to raise 5 kids on single income in my dad’s time? Yes—with the help of community!
Today, my younger sis drops her daughter off with my mom on the way to work. My mom brings her (my niece) to preschool and back, and watches her. https://twitter.com/kureshii_/status/1337920725370298371?s=20
Today, my younger sis drops her daughter off with my mom on the way to work. My mom brings her (my niece) to preschool and back, and watches her. https://twitter.com/kureshii_/status/1337920725370298371?s=20
67/ How much would you have to pay a stranger to do that for you?
This isn’t a “free” service, of course. But it’s not paid for in coin. It’s paid through an ongoing exchange of social debt.
This isn’t a “free” service, of course. But it’s not paid for in coin. It’s paid through an ongoing exchange of social debt.
68/ My sister is a SAH mom, and managing okay on single-income (brother-in-law is a civil servant) because of the immense community resources she has access to. My 7th aunt helped her during her confinement for both daughters at birth.
69/ (Confinement is this thing in many Asian cultures where mothers are confined at home post-pregnancy while they recover. It is no longer literal.)
70/ A trustworthy confinement nanny costs 1.5k (USD)/mo! And that’s usually just teaching the (first-time) mother the mechanisms of infant care, plus cooking some nourishing dishes. It does not include the housework.
71/ The level of service my 7th aunt provides is probably worth at least double of that, money-wise. But how do you quantify the ongoing investment into her relationship with her grand-niece? The fact that she did for her grandniece what she did for me 35 years ago?
72/ You could try to monetise this in a community, but it is far better not to. Not everything is better when legible.
73/ Okay, not everyone gets the luck of draw when it comes to family. But you can build up community deliberately, too.
My first experience of non-related community, besides religion, is probably the Boy Scouts.
I say deliberate but this was anything but.
My first experience of non-related community, besides religion, is probably the Boy Scouts.
I say deliberate but this was anything but.
74/ Why I joined: I would get to learn cool knots and make cool structures
How it started: military-style discipline inflicted by slightly older ex-Scouts who were going through their conscription
How it’s going: Close (trauma-forged?) bonds with fellow Scouts that still exist
How it started: military-style discipline inflicted by slightly older ex-Scouts who were going through their conscription
How it’s going: Close (trauma-forged?) bonds with fellow Scouts that still exist
75/ It’s not often you go through trauma-inducing military shit with a group of people. There’s a kind of bond I feel with these brothers that I don’t feel with other friends, even if we meet only once or twice a year. https://twitter.com/kureshii_/status/1337690829738012672?s=20
76/ When one of them recently opened up about how his wife’s postpartum depression was taking a toll and he badly needed a caregiver for two weeks to watch his wife while he was at work, the actual, concrete offers of help were amazing.
77/ I told my aunt about his situation (as anonymously as I could) and *she offered to help him out if he couldn’t work something out*.
Just on the basis of my word! This is what community can do.
Just on the basis of my word! This is what community can do.
78/ I haven’t really been active in, uh, ... other communities as much as I want to be. I need to work on this.
One area I want to apply myself is in the religious community. The Church is an amazing community, with its associated resources and costs all
One area I want to apply myself is in the religious community. The Church is an amazing community, with its associated resources and costs all
79/ And yes there is a very real cost associated with community. You have to be committed to build trust! That’s a big opportunity cost for some.
80/ You have to learn to ask for help, even in things where you are acceptably self-capable, and you have to learn to offer help, even at inconvenience to yourself.
I am still learning these lessons.
I am still learning these lessons.
81/ Sometimes help is cheap. The cheapest form of help I offer is with tech support. I offer laptop recommendations, help to fix/clean them up, teach my aunts how to use their smartphones, and now how to access government services online and protect their digital identity
82/ If they trust me, I even manage their 2FA tokens and passwords for them (with the help of a password manager).
You can’t buy this kind of service.
I’m welcome for meals, they remember my favourite dishes, it’s more than an exchange, it’s community.
You can’t buy this kind of service.
I’m welcome for meals, they remember my favourite dishes, it’s more than an exchange, it’s community.
83/ Sometimes help is costly. The most costly help I offer is chauffeuring. I hate driving because I can’t multitask while it is happening. I value my time highly and dislike time drains.
But if anyone in my community is landing from a flight, I make it a point to pick them up
But if anyone in my community is landing from a flight, I make it a point to pick them up
84/ We have good public transport and taxi services, but there’s nothing like a personal concierge who tracks your flight, figures out the best place to pick you up, and contacts you directly with arrangements and carries your luggage for you
85/ It can feel a bit socialist in nature; from each according to their ability, to each according to their need. But it doesn’t have to be. If you don’t coordinate this through central planning, and trust people to self-manage their ongoing commitments, it goes a long way
86/ To building a sense of community.
What about free riders?
In a thriving community, there’s usually enough surplus to feed a couple of free riders. The emotional benefits of being enmeshed in a healthy social web are sometimes sufficient, but often people just learn to ...
What about free riders?
In a thriving community, there’s usually enough surplus to feed a couple of free riders. The emotional benefits of being enmeshed in a healthy social web are sometimes sufficient, but often people just learn to ...
87/ ... recognise them and discriminate it is kind of an open problem without a standard solution!
I just trust there will come a time when I need help and they can be there. Can’t force them
it is kind of an open problem without a standard solution!I just trust there will come a time when I need help and they can be there. Can’t force them
88/ Someone close to me has been discussing with me about their decision to buy a house. Apartments here are sold on a 99-year lease scheme; when the lease runs out, the government takes back the land and you are left with nothing.
89/ They want a house on freehold property, which is at least twice as expensive, but at least you hold the land which has value!!!
I find it hard to imagine moving away from the community resources I currently enjoy. It is a lot of work to build it all up again.
I find it hard to imagine moving away from the community resources I currently enjoy. It is a lot of work to build it all up again.
90/ My insurance coverage can cover the medical bills for most common causes, but can it cover the cost of good home nursing care? Idk.
My mom learned early in my childhood that nurses pay better attention to patients when they have a caregiver present
My mom learned early in my childhood that nurses pay better attention to patients when they have a caregiver present
91/ So she always made it a point to be present as much as she can when anyone is hospitalised. Even knowing that someone visits can change a nurse’s relationship to and treatment of a patient.
92/ After my dad retired, she went for training to be a nurse so she could care for him in his old age, and now she’s a valuable resource of common remedies and advice on hospitalisation care and fees.
That’s the cost she pays for community.
That’s the cost she pays for community.
93/ I don’t worry yet that I won’t have that kind of care in my old age. I worry more that I might not be able to do that for her in her old age. How am I going to be able to afford to take unpaid leave?!
94/ But it helps to remember that I can lean on community for that. I don’t have to cook to be fed. I don’t have to do everything myself. I can ask for help! And I can return the favour in other ways without counting beans. When in doubt, give more!
95/ I’m an INTJ, and I have strong Enneagram 5 energies, so this does not come easy or cheap for me. The emotional toll is frankly draining. But I am an Enneagram 9, and community is at the heart of my innermost motivations.
96/ Hoarding and spending money is expensive. Investment returns incur transaction fees, withholding taxes, and other payments, and buying goods and services incurs service tax, the cost of trust, and many other little things that add up.
97/ I would rather look beyond the money I manage, to the things I am trying to achieve: a sense of security in community, and a sense of pride in the value I bring to it
98/ A meal at a restaurant might cost a few hundred. A home-cooked reunion dinner costs a fraction of that and tastes better.
A hotel stay or AirBnB is perhaps a few hundred or more for a week. A stay with my mom or my uncle is rent-free.
A hotel stay or AirBnB is perhaps a few hundred or more for a week. A stay with my mom or my uncle is rent-free.
99/ I want to worry less about how expensive things and services are, and worry more about how my community is doing.
I want to spend less on my independence, and more on being interdependent with my communities
I want to spend less on my independence, and more on being interdependent with my communities
This value can’t be captured in a metric like GDP; optimising for GDP may actually be countereffective.
Thinking of value flow instead of cash flow was the healthy relationship with money I was seeking, and I wish you find your own healthy ways of relating to money too
Thinking of value flow instead of cash flow was the healthy relationship with money I was seeking, and I wish you find your own healthy ways of relating to money too
