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Michigan Senate Oversight Committee will hear from Detroit elections advisor Chris Thomas today.
Before hearing begins. Chairman Ed McBroom seems to indicate he'll ask witnesses to take an "oath." This comes after House lawmakers rebuffed a similar suggestion for Giuliani
Before hearing begins. Chairman Ed McBroom seems to indicate he'll ask witnesses to take an "oath." This comes after House lawmakers rebuffed a similar suggestion for Giuliani
When the Senate Oversight Committee met for 7+ hours last week to hear testimony from people alleging election fraud (they did not have evidence of widespread fraud) no oath was required. https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/12/01/detroit-vote-counting-tcf-center-trump-michigan-election-results/6474768002/
McBroom says he got the idea of administering an oath after he saw other hearings last week.
Sen. Irwin, D-Ann Arbor, notes House cmt denied opportunity to put Giuliani under oath.
"I just want to put out how frustrating it is for some of us to protect (Giuliani)..."
Sen. Irwin, D-Ann Arbor, notes House cmt denied opportunity to put Giuliani under oath.
"I just want to put out how frustrating it is for some of us to protect (Giuliani)..."
McBroom on oaths: "I wish that we had started from the beginning, I intend to be consistent through the remainder of the hearings."
Chris Thomas is sworn in for the Senate hearing. He notes he's submitted multiple affidavits with similar information.
(Background here: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/11/13/judge-rules-against-separate-audit-wayne-county-election/6272704002/)
(Background here: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/11/13/judge-rules-against-separate-audit-wayne-county-election/6272704002/)
You can watch this hearing here: https://misenate.viebit.com/player_live.php?hash=31927038-5fb6-458a-9164-c7c6f16a0a92
And background on Chris Thomas, who worked 36 years for the state under Republican and Democratic secretaries of state https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/06/25/chris-thomas/416923001/
Thomas says he's going to walk through what happened at TCF Center in Detroit, where absentee ballots were counted. Emphasizes that mistakes are very different than fraud.
Notes issues raised show misunderstanding and confusion of Michigan election law and administration.
Notes issues raised show misunderstanding and confusion of Michigan election law and administration.
Thomas says his role in Detroit was as a senior advisor. He worked with the city on absentee ballot counting, satellite offices and drop boxes. He said he also served as a liaison with "challenging organizations" at TCF
Thomas is defining terms for the lawmakers (e-pollbook, qualified voter file, etc.)
Remember, the Senate Oversight Committee has met several times and heard from people making allegations before hearing from Thomas or other elections experts
Remember, the Senate Oversight Committee has met several times and heard from people making allegations before hearing from Thomas or other elections experts
Thomas shows this slide to refute allegations voting machines were improperly connected to the Internet.
"No internet connection, no internet icons, no wifi connectivity."
Said the computers didn't have the capacity to connect remotely to the internet.
"No internet connection, no internet icons, no wifi connectivity."
Said the computers didn't have the capacity to connect remotely to the internet.
Thoma: "There was nothing transmitted (online) at TCF. Folks can talk until they're blue in the face, but there was nothing transmitted from TCF."
Thomas: "Even if those laptops had WiFi connectivity, not counting board inspector" had credentials to access qualified voter file
Thomas: "Even if those laptops had WiFi connectivity, not counting board inspector" had credentials to access qualified voter file
Thomas says there was an internet hotspot at TCF, but only used by elections officials and was not connected, or able to be connected, to the vote tabulations system.
Thomas: We didn't hire a force that would go around a football field-sized room to ensure all challengers were behaving. Says before ballots were counted, challenging organizations were trained on processing and tabulating process
Thomas: If you vote straight ticket, and then you go down on the ballot to the section for president, fill in the write-in oval and put Mickey Mouse in, at adjudication, they're going to give that vote to the party's candidate for which that person cast a straight ticket.
Thomas: On Sunday, 2 days before Election Day, 140,000 absentee ballots from Detroit delivered to TCF Center.
Only 174,000 absentee ballots cast in Detroit. This refutes testimony from people who said they saw 50k ballots or more brought to TCF in dead of night on Wednesday
Only 174,000 absentee ballots cast in Detroit. This refutes testimony from people who said they saw 50k ballots or more brought to TCF in dead of night on Wednesday
Thomas: There's a lot of talk about not checking signatures an absentee ballot envelopes at TCF. That's because no absentee counting board in the state checks signatures. That's done by local clerks, under state law.
Thomas shares slide of computer screens for challengers to view what workers were doing at TCF Center.
Says the decision by clerk to have these screens protected workers and allowed challengers to see what was going on.
Some challengers said it was difficult to read screen
Says the decision by clerk to have these screens protected workers and allowed challengers to see what was going on.
Some challengers said it was difficult to read screen
Thomas: Detroit left absentee ballots in envelopes.
"We never removed them from the envelopes" prior to counting on Election Day.
Says Detroit pre-processed 110,000 ballots on Monday, not all 140K but "gave us a nice head start" going in to Election Day.
"We never removed them from the envelopes" prior to counting on Election Day.
Says Detroit pre-processed 110,000 ballots on Monday, not all 140K but "gave us a nice head start" going in to Election Day.
Thomas: The law says you can have 1 challenger per counting board, "so there's your 134 to start."
Remember, lots of testimony arguing Republicans weren't allowed to have enough challengers at TCF Center
Remember, lots of testimony arguing Republicans weren't allowed to have enough challengers at TCF Center
Thomas: There were shifts at TCF on Monday and Tuesday.
Tuesday shift started at 7 am and went until 9 pm. Next shift came in at 10 pm and worked until 5 am, then another shift change at 6 am on Wednesday.
Tuesday shift started at 7 am and went until 9 pm. Next shift came in at 10 pm and worked until 5 am, then another shift change at 6 am on Wednesday.
Thomas: We answered questions all day Tuesday.
"It was not contentious, it was laid back, is how I would describe it."
Said similar Wednesday morning, referencing GOP challenger leadership.
"Democrats didn't ask me a whole lot." Said they told him they weren't challenging
"It was not contentious, it was laid back, is how I would describe it."
Said similar Wednesday morning, referencing GOP challenger leadership.
"Democrats didn't ask me a whole lot." Said they told him they weren't challenging
Thomas: Things changed Wednesday afternoon, after social media posts.
"This was a different attitude than the challengers we had been working with the past few days. This group was aggressive, was rude and had no problem making disparaging remarks to the workers."
"This was a different attitude than the challengers we had been working with the past few days. This group was aggressive, was rude and had no problem making disparaging remarks to the workers."
Thomas: By Wednesday afternoon, things re: counting were winding down. Each board had to stay open until military and overseas ballots were duplicated.
Says he spent Wednesday afternoon "diffusing arguments between challengers and workers"
Says he spent Wednesday afternoon "diffusing arguments between challengers and workers"
Thomas says Detroit police told him 8 to 9 people were asked to leave.
"I would say there were hundreds of challengers, definitely."
Says people were not asked to leave, but initially some people were not allowed back in to TCF
"I would say there were hundreds of challengers, definitely."
Says people were not asked to leave, but initially some people were not allowed back in to TCF
Thomas: No one who has testified noted banging on glass at TCF.
"Just banging, chanting about stop the vote. There were tables close to those windows, with workers."
Says cardboard was put up to protect workers if glass shattered and to stop intimidation
"Just banging, chanting about stop the vote. There were tables close to those windows, with workers."
Says cardboard was put up to protect workers if glass shattered and to stop intimidation
Thomas also says challengers inside TCF were chanting about stopping the vote, calling it extraordinary.
Says some challenge leaders with GOP asked people to stop, and they did.
"In my years, I've never seen any display similar to that in a challenging situation."
Says some challenge leaders with GOP asked people to stop, and they did.
"In my years, I've never seen any display similar to that in a challenging situation."
Thomas: Some witnesses indicated they were thrown out because an agitator enticed them to do bad things and they got caught.
He says he didn't see that, and police did not indicate that
He says he didn't see that, and police did not indicate that
Thomas notes people upset about delivery of ballots. Says people have been concerned for years about late ballots being brought in to Detroit.
Thomas says about 15,000 absentee ballots came in on Election Day. They have to be processed and their signatures checked. Takes time
Thomas says about 15,000 absentee ballots came in on Election Day. They have to be processed and their signatures checked. Takes time
Thomas: Of these ballots, 45 boxes were loaded into a white van. Boxes are essentially mail trays that hold 300 to 350 ballots.
There is no requirement in Michigan election law that ballots prior to being opened must be transported in sealed boxes. "That just does not exist."
There is no requirement in Michigan election law that ballots prior to being opened must be transported in sealed boxes. "That just does not exist."
Thomas: It was not a food truck, "no secret there." Says this happened at about 3 a.m.
This appears to again refute testimony from people who said 50K ballots were delivered late at night.
This appears to again refute testimony from people who said 50K ballots were delivered late at night.
Thomas: Daniel Baxter wasn't there at this time, refutes testimony from someone last week.
Thomas again refuting allegation 50K ballots showed up late. Reiterates it was 15k to 16k ballots
Thomas again refuting allegation 50K ballots showed up late. Reiterates it was 15k to 16k ballots
Thomas: "It's always an inflated number, it happens at every election."
Says from my perspective, there was 16,000 ballots. There was not a second delivery.
On Wednesday night, extra *blank* ballots brought in for routine duplication of military/overseas ballots
Says from my perspective, there was 16,000 ballots. There was not a second delivery.
On Wednesday night, extra *blank* ballots brought in for routine duplication of military/overseas ballots
Thomas, moving to election inspectors. Says he's very grateful for hundreds of workers who "gave the at-risk elders a break" to work during a pandemic.
Elections workers tend to be older citizens, but clerks in the summer said they'd had trouble recruiting elections workers
Elections workers tend to be older citizens, but clerks in the summer said they'd had trouble recruiting elections workers
Thomas notes arguments about lack of Republican inspectors at TCF Center. He says that's true, and an area where work is needed.
"The law is very clear that the parties are given the opportunity...to provide lists of potential inspectors to the clerk."
"The law is very clear that the parties are given the opportunity...to provide lists of potential inspectors to the clerk."
Thomas: I made a call to (GOP political consultant) Stu Sandler before the election. said he really wanted to make sure Republicans were at the adjudication stations.
Says didn't get anything from Sandler, but Republicans were at duplication stations.
Says didn't get anything from Sandler, but Republicans were at duplication stations.
Thomas says it's always difficult to recruit Republican challengers in Detroit. It's difficult to recruit Democratic challengers in other areas around the state, he said.
Before this election, Thomas said challenges have been pretty rare
Before this election, Thomas said challenges have been pretty rare
Thomas: Not surprised if workers pushed back on challengers Wednesday afternoon.
Says if challengers had come to TCF to look for legitimate issues, and not under the pretense that the election was being stolen, "things might have been different."
Says if challengers had come to TCF to look for legitimate issues, and not under the pretense that the election was being stolen, "things might have been different."
Thomas: "The one thing that was difficult to see was the ballot numbers. We asked the inspectors to hold them out to the side...the numbers were pretty small."
Says staff attempted to accommodate inspectors, and everything else being done could be seen on the screen
Says staff attempted to accommodate inspectors, and everything else being done could be seen on the screen
Thomas notes hard for inspectors to see ballot duplication as well. People have testified this was difficult to see.
"A lot of discomfort on the part of the workers" to have people so close during that process and amid a pandemic.
"A lot of discomfort on the part of the workers" to have people so close during that process and amid a pandemic.
Thomas moving to ballot envelope error allegations. This is heart of allegations from Jessy Jacob, first witness Giuliani spent a great amount of time questioning.
Thomas says satellite voting locations did properly accept ballots, which requires filling in date ballot received
Thomas says satellite voting locations did properly accept ballots, which requires filling in date ballot received
But as Thomas notes, ballots are stamped when they are received. He previously showed a slide with a sample ballot. The date stamp is big, red and in the upper left corner.
Says each of these ballots from satellite centers had a time-date stamp.
Says each of these ballots from satellite centers had a time-date stamp.
Thomas: "We view that as a clerical error, and the type of error that would have been corrected under all four secretaries of state that I worked for...we do not disenfranchise voters based on clerical errors."
Sen. McBroom asks questions about workers who corrected this error.
Thomas says these were workers who had access to QVF and hotspot, but no workers at any ballot tabulation table could access QVF.
Thomas estimates there were 1,000 to 1,500 ballots with this error.
Thomas says these were workers who had access to QVF and hotspot, but no workers at any ballot tabulation table could access QVF.
Thomas estimates there were 1,000 to 1,500 ballots with this error.
Thomas goes to issues w/birthdate. Lots of people complained about seeing 1/1/1900 birthdates.
Says in polling place, DOB is verification of voters, not signatures. But at AV boards, verification done by sigs not DOB.
Says MI for decades have used 1/1/1900 as placeholder
Says in polling place, DOB is verification of voters, not signatures. But at AV boards, verification done by sigs not DOB.
Says MI for decades have used 1/1/1900 as placeholder
Thomas: I explained that to at least 15 people on Wednesday.
"It was raised, it was discussed. There was nothing untoward about it."
"We put a ridiculous birthdate in, not trying to kid anybody about anything. It's not wonder that anyone actually saw it."
"It was raised, it was discussed. There was nothing untoward about it."
"We put a ridiculous birthdate in, not trying to kid anybody about anything. It's not wonder that anyone actually saw it."
Thomas says Jacob wanted to go much further and re-verify signatures of all of these ballots.
She was told that's not what they do, and clerks already verified these signatures.
She was told that's not what they do, and clerks already verified these signatures.
Thomas moves to allegations that ballots counted multiple times.
"First of all, I will just tell you it didn't happen as it was described."
This is the chief allegation from Melisa Carone
"First of all, I will just tell you it didn't happen as it was described."
This is the chief allegation from Melisa Carone
Thomas: "There is no counting board out of balance by over 100. That is just plain, again, not knowing what you're looking at."
Says Carone was hired to "clean read-heads on scanners" and is not a Dominion systems expert.
Says Carone was hired to "clean read-heads on scanners" and is not a Dominion systems expert.
Thomas says Carone and others were looking at the wrong counter on the ballot machine.
"If what she and others are saying is true, then you will have multiple precincts grossly out of balance. Wayne County Board of Canvassers did not find that."
"If what she and others are saying is true, then you will have multiple precincts grossly out of balance. Wayne County Board of Canvassers did not find that."
Thomas: "These folks were not necessarily attuned to what they were looking at."
Thomas: Just because a counting board is out of balance does not mean they are not recountable.
At a recount, Thomas says if the number of ballots in the box equals the number of ballots on the ballot tape that came out of tabulation machine, then they can be recounted.
At a recount, Thomas says if the number of ballots in the box equals the number of ballots on the ballot tape that came out of tabulation machine, then they can be recounted.
Thomas: There are basically 148 more voters than there are ballots.
"There's no ballot stuffing, of additional ballots than there are voters. And there are explanations that are needed..."
Notes Sec. Benson will likely inspect out-of-balance counting boards.
"There's no ballot stuffing, of additional ballots than there are voters. And there are explanations that are needed..."
Notes Sec. Benson will likely inspect out-of-balance counting boards.
Benson has already pledged to conduct an audit in Wayne County: https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/19/benson-post-election-performance-audit-wayne/3779269001/
Thomas refuting what he calls conspiracies related to ballots cast and alleged massive increases in voter turnout from Detroit.
Notes Trump received 5,000 more votes in Detroit than he did in 2016.
Notes Trump received 5,000 more votes in Detroit than he did in 2016.
Thomas: "It just, none of (the conspiracies) add up. The president lost the election in Kent County, in Oakland County and western Wayne County."
Notes out-of-balance precincts throughout state.
Also mentions other states pre-process + count ballots ahead of Election Day
Notes out-of-balance precincts throughout state.
Also mentions other states pre-process + count ballots ahead of Election Day
Thomas: In Florida, they gave their counties 22 days before the election to pre-process absentee ballots.
By 9 o'clock, Florida's returns are basically in, Thomas notes.
By 9 o'clock, Florida's returns are basically in, Thomas notes.
