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Hall: "Citizens have serious concerns about the election in Michigan...elections must be trustworthy and accurate."
"Citizens become frustrated and demand answers when a large number of precinct tabulations don't reconcile...or when an independent audit is not performed."
"Citizens become frustrated and demand answers when a large number of precinct tabulations don't reconcile...or when an independent audit is not performed."
Hall says the committee can make a decision on whether voter fraud occurred.
That's not really the role of the Legislature. But it can review processes and pass laws that improve/change how elections are administered
That's not really the role of the Legislature. But it can review processes and pass laws that improve/change how elections are administered
. @darrincamilleri is trying to get Rep. Hall to swear in Rudy Giuliani.
Hall says he's out of order, and that "I'm not going to allow that."
Camilleri says he's appealing the rule of the chair.
Hall says he's out of order, and that "I'm not going to allow that."
Camilleri says he's appealing the rule of the chair.
After a little back and forth, committee taking a brief break to discuss whether to swear in Giuliani and Jenna Ellis.
Unclear if it requires a full vote of the committee to request swearing in witnesses at a legislative hearing
Unclear if it requires a full vote of the committee to request swearing in witnesses at a legislative hearing
Hall rules against swearing in Giuliani.
Committee votes 5-3 in favor of the ruling of the chair.
Giuliani and Ellis will not be sworn in
Committee votes 5-3 in favor of the ruling of the chair.
Giuliani and Ellis will not be sworn in
Giuliani wants to say that he's not a witness, because he says if he were to appear as a witness at Congress as a witness, then he'd be under oath.
So he's not under oath.
So he's not under oath.
Giuliani says the media and Trump opponents are wrongly saying there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud.
Says no one has bothered to listen to witnesses. He has affidavits.
We read 100+ affidavits from witnesses at TCF. They didn't show fraud https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/11/trump-lawsuit-affidavits-allege-misconduct-do-not-show-widespread-fraud/6247949002/
Says no one has bothered to listen to witnesses. He has affidavits.
We read 100+ affidavits from witnesses at TCF. They didn't show fraud https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/11/trump-lawsuit-affidavits-allege-misconduct-do-not-show-widespread-fraud/6247949002/
Says there was "massive cheating" by the Democratic party of Detroit.
At no point has the Trump campaign sued or formally alleged that the Democratic Party of Detroit carried out any fraud or misconduct.
At no point has the Trump campaign sued or formally alleged that the Democratic Party of Detroit carried out any fraud or misconduct.
Now Giuliani is spreading misinformation about how votes are counted.
He's repeating the allegations about Dominion Voting System that "in it's infancy had ties to Hugo Chavez."
He's providing inaccurate information https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/14/fact-check-dominion-voting-machines-didnt-delete-switch-votes/6282157002/
He's repeating the allegations about Dominion Voting System that "in it's infancy had ties to Hugo Chavez."
He's providing inaccurate information https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/14/fact-check-dominion-voting-machines-didnt-delete-switch-votes/6282157002/
Giuliani says he wants to submit letters from several lawmakers, including Sen. Warren and "another lawmaker who I can't remember right now."
Giuliani says there was some indicating vote counting was sent to Frankfurt, Germany or Barcelona.
What?
What?
Now, Giuliani wants to call witnesses. That's not really what people testifying tend to do.
Hall says committee going to allow witnesses. One question per member, no follow ups. Wants committee hearing to be done at 9.
Says @darrincamilleri "shenanigans" will prevent leeway
Hall says committee going to allow witnesses. One question per member, no follow ups. Wants committee hearing to be done at 9.
Says @darrincamilleri "shenanigans" will prevent leeway
Ellis, speaking now as a Trump campaign attorney, says question before lawmakers is a legal one, not a political one.
Argues state lawmakers have the authority to ensure "against a corrupt popular vote."
Says going to ask lawmakers to "take action" on this
Argues state lawmakers have the authority to ensure "against a corrupt popular vote."
Says going to ask lawmakers to "take action" on this
Ellis: Put aside party affiliation, and look openly and honestly at information presented by witnesses.
Then, after that, she says lawmakers should take action to intervene in the electoral process.
Then, after that, she says lawmakers should take action to intervene in the electoral process.
Now Giuliani is asking questions of a woman named Jesse Jacob (sp?)
Again, this is not how legislative hearings generally work.
Imagine Jacob is on a witness stand and Giuliani is examining her.
Again, this is not how legislative hearings generally work.
Imagine Jacob is on a witness stand and Giuliani is examining her.
Giuliani previously said Jacob had never been heard from before.
Jacob submitted an affidavit with the Trump campaign lawsuit filed in Wayne County Circuit Court. We reported on it here https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/09/detroit-lawsuit-misconduct-elections/6218612002/
Jacob submitted an affidavit with the Trump campaign lawsuit filed in Wayne County Circuit Court. We reported on it here https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/09/detroit-lawsuit-misconduct-elections/6218612002/
Here's our review of Jacob's affidavit.
It's worth noting election officials say Jacob, and many others, don't quite understand what they saw. https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/09/detroit-lawsuit-misconduct-elections/6218612002/
It's worth noting election officials say Jacob, and many others, don't quite understand what they saw. https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/09/detroit-lawsuit-misconduct-elections/6218612002/
Interesting. While members of the Michigan legislative committee conducting this hearing get to ask each person testifying one questions, it looks like Rudy Giuliani, the attorney for President Trump's re-election campaign, gets to ask as many questions as he wants
Here's all of Jacob's affidavit (pages 37-39): https://www.greatlakesjc.org/wp-content/uploads/Complaint-Costantino-FINAL-With-Exhibits.pdf
Jacobs is taking about dates for when ballots were *sent out* to voters.
Jacobs says a clerk must issue a ballot within 24 hours of the clerk receiving an application.
I'm not sure she understands how the law works. https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/08/20/absentee-ballot-michigan-election-2020/3382648001/
Jacobs says a clerk must issue a ballot within 24 hours of the clerk receiving an application.
I'm not sure she understands how the law works. https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/08/20/absentee-ballot-michigan-election-2020/3382648001/
Wayne County Circuit Court Judge Timothy Kenny determined the lawsuit with which Jacob's affidavit was filed included an interpretation of events at TCF Center that was "incorrect and not credible." https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/11/13/judge-rules-against-separate-audit-wayne-county-election/6272704002/
I think it's relevant to note that the House Oversight Committee (allowing a partisan attorney who represents a political candidate ask questions of witnesses who came with him) has not had anyone from the city of Detroit (clerk, election advisors, etc) testify since the election
Wow. Now Giuliani is asking Jacob to take off her mask in a room with people.
She didn't want to do it. Lawmakers said they could hear her.
She didn't want to do it. Lawmakers said they could hear her.
Here's the scene right now at the hearing.
Giuliani asking about people wearing Black Lives Matter gear at what I believe is a clerks office.
Jacob says she "knew it wasn't right" but couldn't do anything.
Nothing (that I'm aware of) in Michigan law prevents someone from wearing Black Lives Matter while voting
Jacob says she "knew it wasn't right" but couldn't do anything.
Nothing (that I'm aware of) in Michigan law prevents someone from wearing Black Lives Matter while voting
Jacob says she used to ask for drivers' licenses, but she was told not to.
In Michigan, you do not need a drivers' license to vote. Here's the rule, from Michigan SOS: https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1633_8716-178123--,00.html
Giuliani focused on this misleading concept during mtg with MIGOP ahead of hearing
In Michigan, you do not need a drivers' license to vote. Here's the rule, from Michigan SOS: https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1633_8716-178123--,00.html
Giuliani focused on this misleading concept during mtg with MIGOP ahead of hearing
Now we're talking about people who wanted to vote in person who previously requested absentee ballots.
Lots of people ended up doing this in Michigan https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/03/michigan-spoiled-ballots-election/6145212002/
Lots of people ended up doing this in Michigan https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/03/michigan-spoiled-ballots-election/6145212002/
Even if person requested an absentee ballot, tried to cast it, then went in person to vote, *only 1 ballot would count.*
Voting systems/clerks note if the same person tries to vote twice.
Is implication thousands of people voted twice, with their own name, and no one noticed?
Voting systems/clerks note if the same person tries to vote twice.
Is implication thousands of people voted twice, with their own name, and no one noticed?
We're about an hour in to the hearing. Democratic lawmakers are trying to object to the unorthodox proceedings.
Chairman Hall gavels them out of order, asks Giuliani to keep asking this person questions
Chairman Hall gavels them out of order, asks Giuliani to keep asking this person questions
Number of questions asked of Giuliani by Michigan lawmakers: 0
Number of questions asked of Giuliani's witnesses by Michigan lawmakers: 0
Number of questions asked by Giuliani of the witness who came with him: A bunch
Evidence of voter fraud: 0
Number of questions asked of Giuliani's witnesses by Michigan lawmakers: 0
Number of questions asked by Giuliani of the witness who came with him: A bunch
Evidence of voter fraud: 0
People are gasping in the audience when Jacob recounts what she considers to be problems involving the Qualified Voter File that she says she saw during her time at the TCF Center.
She says ballots were opened improperly
She says ballots were opened improperly
In affidavit, Jacob says she worked at TCF on Nov. 3. Says ballots opened, dated incorrectly, alleging misconduct.
Detroit was allowed to pre-process AV ballots on Nov. 2. That means opening outer envelopes, checking ballots are signed and sorting ballots ahead of Election Day
Detroit was allowed to pre-process AV ballots on Nov. 2. That means opening outer envelopes, checking ballots are signed and sorting ballots ahead of Election Day
Chris Thomas, longtime elections official under GOP and Democratic secretaries of state, said clerical error at satellite offices led to issue w/date included in online system for some ballots. The ballots were physically stamped w/date received. None received after polls closed
It's expected lawmakers will have Thomas, TCF Center elections administrator Daniel Baxter, Detroit City Clerk Janice Winfrey and/or others testify at some point.
But by then, all of the allegations/misinformation being shared today will be repeated as "evidence" of fraud
But by then, all of the allegations/misinformation being shared today will be repeated as "evidence" of fraud
Giuliani trying to get Jacob to say who Daniel Baxter is. She isn't sure what his role is.
Giuliani: "we'll find out what his role was."
He was in charge of elections operations at TCF, and has worked with the Detroit Department of Elections since 1985
Giuliani: "we'll find out what his role was."
He was in charge of elections operations at TCF, and has worked with the Detroit Department of Elections since 1985
I'm still legitimately confused how Giuliani asking Jacob questions in front of lawmakers is easier/more productive than lawmakers just asking Jacob or Giuliani questions.
Jacob says elections officials "treated me like a criminal."
Says she was harassed + intimidated.
Many other GOP poll challengers have expressed similar frustrations w/elections workers who they say didn't take concerns seriously.
Workers say they do not understand process
Says she was harassed + intimidated.
Many other GOP poll challengers have expressed similar frustrations w/elections workers who they say didn't take concerns seriously.
Workers say they do not understand process
Jacob says an elections worker threw a badge at her at some point.
Giuliani: "Were you shocked at the level of crookedness?"
Giuliani: "Were you shocked at the level of crookedness?"
It sounds like Jacob is getting a little choked up. She says she's a devoted Catholic and very appreciative of everything in the U.S. (she self-identified as an immigrant earlier)
"I hope this will help this nation. That's the only reason I am here."
"I hope this will help this nation. That's the only reason I am here."
Rep. Cynthia Johnson, a Detroit Democrat, interjects, says she loves her city and "that's not true."
Democrats on the committee are clearly frustrated here.
Democrats on the committee are clearly frustrated here.
Hall: Mr. Mayor, we're not going to to go until 1 or 2 am.
First lawmaker to ask questions is Rep. Beau LaFave, a Republican from the UP.
LaFave repeating some of Jacob's statements, including her recollection of what she says Thomas told her.
(In court, you'd call that hearsay)
LaFave repeating some of Jacob's statements, including her recollection of what she says Thomas told her.
(In court, you'd call that hearsay)
Rep. David LaGrand, a Grand Rapids Democrat, up next.
He asks her if she knows that people in Michigan don't need an ID to vote in the state.
Audience members cry out, interject.
Jacob answers question incorrectly.
LaGrand: "Okay, you're confused. Thank you."
He asks her if she knows that people in Michigan don't need an ID to vote in the state.
Audience members cry out, interject.
Jacob answers question incorrectly.
LaGrand: "Okay, you're confused. Thank you."
Jacob tells Rep. Stephen Johnson, a Republican, that she only saw Democratic poll challengers at TCF.
Rep. Cynthia Johnson, D-Detroit, is asking questions about Jacob's identity.
Chairman Hall: "We're not here to intimidate people."
Chairman Hall: "We're not here to intimidate people."
Rep. @darrincamilleri tries to ask Rudy Giuliani a question, but Chairman Hall won't let him. He says he can only ask Jacob a question.
"This is not Four Seasons Landscaping, this is the Michigan State Legislature," Camilleri said.
"This is not Four Seasons Landscaping, this is the Michigan State Legislature," Camilleri said.
Camilleri says Judge Kenny in Detroit ruled her testimony not credible. Kenny ruled that in relation to the entire lawsuit with which she submitted her affidavit.
"I object!" Giuliani says.
"This isn't a court room!" Camilleri said.
"I object!" Giuliani says.
"This isn't a court room!" Camilleri said.
Chairman Hall didn't ask Jacob, the only witness apart from Giuliani, to speak so far, any questions.
Hall asking Giuliani to limit testimony to 10 minutes.
Giuliani: "I felt uncomfortable interrupting her."
Hall says Jacob was very brave to come in "a great risk."
(What risk?)
Hall, chairman of the committee, tells Giuliani that lawmakers should be allowed to ask more ?s
Giuliani: "I felt uncomfortable interrupting her."
Hall says Jacob was very brave to come in "a great risk."
(What risk?)
Hall, chairman of the committee, tells Giuliani that lawmakers should be allowed to ask more ?s
Next speaker is Melissa Carone. She testified at the state Senate committee hearing. She says she was a contractor for Dominion Voting System.
She had trouble articulating what she was hired to do during testimony yesterday
She had trouble articulating what she was hired to do during testimony yesterday
She's alleging today, as she did yesterday, staffers ran same ballots through machines multiple "thousands" of times.
That's inaccurate, not how the machines work, and as @clarajanehen notes, would be easily spotted during the routine canvass of the election
That's inaccurate, not how the machines work, and as @clarajanehen notes, would be easily spotted during the routine canvass of the election
Carone: "They were in on it."
Giuliani: "In on what?"
Carone: "They were cheating!"
Giuliani: "In on what?"
Carone: "They were cheating!"
Rep. Johnson calls a point of order.
"We should have them under oath."
Carone yells back "I have an affidavit!"
Hall: "We've never done that."
I'm willing to bet Hall has never let someone else lead his own committee. Calls format "a little unusual."
"We should have them under oath."
Carone yells back "I have an affidavit!"
Hall: "We've never done that."
I'm willing to bet Hall has never let someone else lead his own committee. Calls format "a little unusual."
Carone: "I am a mother, I have two children, I have two degrees. I don't know any woman in the word that would write an affidavit under oath, just to write it (laughs). You can go to prison for this."
Carone: "I know for a fact there was illegal activity going on there...there is vans full of ballots coming out of that place. If it wasn't for my mother, I would have went there."
Believe she's referring to a place she's called the Chicago warehouse.
Believe she's referring to a place she's called the Chicago warehouse.
Carone: Democrats took every avenue possible to commit fraud.
She keeps saying she saw fraud ("over 20 counts of fraud taking place in front of my face.")
Rep. Johnson chimes tries to speak again. Carone, to a state lawmaker, "I love how you can saw whatever you want to say."
She keeps saying she saw fraud ("over 20 counts of fraud taking place in front of my face.")
Rep. Johnson chimes tries to speak again. Carone, to a state lawmaker, "I love how you can saw whatever you want to say."
Carone says "at least 30,000" absentee ballots were counted multiple times.
Detroit says 174,000 absentee ballots were cast. So if 30,000 ballots were counted multiple times, then how many people actually voted?
Detroit says 174,000 absentee ballots were cast. So if 30,000 ballots were counted multiple times, then how many people actually voted?
Carone is again having a really difficult time explaining who hired her and what she was actually hired to do on Election Day.
Chairman Hall says Dominion Voting Systems has refused to come before the committee
(Writing a recap of tonight's hearing, so not live-tweeting for a moment. Carone is still testifying, says everything she's said was true.
A Detroit judge previously deemed her allegations, and others in a lawsuit, not credible https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/11/13/judge-rules-against-separate-audit-wayne-county-election/6272704002/
A Detroit judge previously deemed her allegations, and others in a lawsuit, not credible https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/11/13/judge-rules-against-separate-audit-wayne-county-election/6272704002/
Hall asks why others haven't come forward if there was widespread fraud?
Carone says it's because "Democrats like to ruin your lives."
Carone says it's because "Democrats like to ruin your lives."
Carone is berating a state lawmaker asking her questions.
Rep. Stephen Johnson, a Republican, asks how 30,000 ballots counted multiple times wouldn't be reflected in the poll book.
Carone says the poll book is off by 100,000 votes (it's not)
Rep. Stephen Johnson, a Republican, asks how 30,000 ballots counted multiple times wouldn't be reflected in the poll book.
Carone says the poll book is off by 100,000 votes (it's not)
Carone is implying state lawmakers had something to do with poll books in Detroit.
This hearing is going off the rails a bit.
This hearing is going off the rails a bit.
Giuliani says he met Carone for the first time today, and spoke with her for the first time yesterday.
Okay, two new people speaking.
One woman says she was a poll challenger at TCF Center. a man says he was a volunteer on election night. I'm sorry, I missed their names.
One woman says she was a poll challenger at TCF Center. a man says he was a volunteer on election night. I'm sorry, I missed their names.
I believe the woman speaking, a poll challenger, also testified at the Senate hearing yesterday.
She said poll workers told her stay away six feet (there were COVID rules at TCF Center). She thought this happened because she was wearing a tag identifying her GOP affiliation
She said poll workers told her stay away six feet (there were COVID rules at TCF Center). She thought this happened because she was wearing a tag identifying her GOP affiliation
The man speaking now also spoke yesterday at the Senate hearing.
Man says election workers were stealing duplicate ballots. Not sure what he means by duplicate ballot.
Man says election workers were stealing duplicate ballots. Not sure what he means by duplicate ballot.
Man also says early Wednesday morning, approximately 50,000 ballots were brought into the TCF Center.
He's implying the number of ballots and the time they were delivered are both suspicious
He's implying the number of ballots and the time they were delivered are both suspicious
Man says it was clear there was a violation of an imbalance of poll workers when Daniel Baxter (Detroit elections official) said over a loudspeaker "This is what Democracy looks like!" and people cheered.
Man also says he only saw one absentee ballot in Detroit cast for Trump. Note, this means he was close enough to see what was on the ballot.
And, again, Detroit is a heavily Democratic city, TCF only counted absentee ballots, and Trump told his supporters not to vote absentee
And, again, Detroit is a heavily Democratic city, TCF only counted absentee ballots, and Trump told his supporters not to vote absentee
Man says he saw multiple election workers inappropriately filling out ballots with pens they had at a table.
Says the employees were filling in the Democratic straight ticket bubbles on the ballots.
Says the employees were filling in the Democratic straight ticket bubbles on the ballots.
Man notes that after 2 pm on Wednesday, Nov. 3, some people were barred from returning to TCF and cardboard was placed on some windows at the center.
Some @freep reporting on what happened at TCF https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/11/06/tcf-center-detroit-ballot-counting/6173577002/
Some @freep reporting on what happened at TCF https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/11/06/tcf-center-detroit-ballot-counting/6173577002/
Woman, now speaking, says the fact that the numbers of the ballots appeared to be close made her suspicious.
Again, Detroit was allowed to pre-process ballots on Nov. 2. That means they could sort ballots by precinct. Possible this would lead to a sequence of ballots
Again, Detroit was allowed to pre-process ballots on Nov. 2. That means they could sort ballots by precinct. Possible this would lead to a sequence of ballots
The woman testifying says they were told they could break the six-foot COVID rule if they were challenging a ballot, but said staff stringently enforced the six-foot rule.
While Rep. Cynthia Johnson tries to ask ?s, crowd laughs when she confused initials of TCF Center.
She says there are no Detroiters in room. Hall, asking the crowd to stop yelling, asks Johnson to ask a question of these witnesses.
Johnson keeps talking, ruled out of order
She says there are no Detroiters in room. Hall, asking the crowd to stop yelling, asks Johnson to ask a question of these witnesses.
Johnson keeps talking, ruled out of order
Johnson: "You're allowing people to come in here and lie, and I know you're lying."
Giuliani says every witness who has testified today has submitted a sworn affidavit.
Giuliani says every witness who has testified today has submitted a sworn affidavit.
Woman who just testified said she would say the same thing she said under oath. Crowd cheers and claps.
Man now explaining what he means by duplicate ballots. If a machine wouldn't read a ballot, then a staffer would fill out a duplicate ballot, he said.
He said these ballots were stolen. Unsure what he means by that though; potentially that they were taken without a need?
He said these ballots were stolen. Unsure what he means by that though; potentially that they were taken without a need?
Rep. @darrincamilleri asks if ballots were counted multiple times, why wouldn't that be reflected in the poll book?
Woman testifying says she's not an expert, just trying to explain what she saw and experienced.
Woman testifying says she's not an expert, just trying to explain what she saw and experienced.
Woah, the woman speaking says racist comment as an argument as to why voter ID should be mandated in Michigan. I'm not going to repeat the specific statement, but essentially says certain people look the same so IDs should be mandated
