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‘Transgender women’s experiences in the workplace’.
That workplace being the Environment Agency (EA), a non-departmental public body answerable to the Department of Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in the UK.
‘Transgender women’s experiences in the workplace’.
That workplace being the Environment Agency (EA), a non-departmental public body answerable to the Department of Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in the UK.
This meeting was hosted by its Women’s Network with input from the EA's LGBT+ network group and the cross-govt. network group a:gender, which exclusively supports people who identify as trans and intersex.
About 25 people attended.
About 25 people attended.
Just because the EA is mainly there to protect wildlife, doesn’t mean they haven’t got the time (work time that is) to talk about the bog situation - TW should be able to use them, but not men who pretend to be TW *natch*.
Flood warnings clearly too boring by half.
Flood warnings clearly too boring by half.
The host from the women’s group began by explaining that TW and Intersex people are the most marginalised group in society facing the highest rates of violence and that colleagues needed to educate themselves to be better allies.
The session was recorded for internal purposes for further dissemination amongst the networks.
A lesbian from the LGBT+ network group said there was a lot of ignorance about the various letters of the alphabet sick bag and the only way to combat this was to be a visible ally.
A lesbian from the LGBT+ network group said there was a lot of ignorance about the various letters of the alphabet sick bag and the only way to combat this was to be a visible ally.
It wasn’t up for debate that TWAW and she was deeply ashamed that some lesbians were ‘anti-trans’. She wanted the world to know that she was a trans ally and a lesbian, and that trans people had been forefront in the fight for lesbian and gay rights but managed to stop short
of saying Marsha P Johnson threw the first brick.
She also said there should also be no division between women (unless ur an ‘orrible lesbo wot don’t like ladique, then you need to STFU*).
*She didn’t say that *obviously*.
She also said there should also be no division between women (unless ur an ‘orrible lesbo wot don’t like ladique, then you need to STFU*).
*She didn’t say that *obviously*.
Emma Dunn, the Chair of the preposterously named a:gender, gave a brief resume of her activism.
Note the thought given to making a:gender specifically all lower case with a colon - a clear sign of flatulence.
http://www.agender.org.uk
Note the thought given to making a:gender specifically all lower case with a colon - a clear sign of flatulence.
http://www.agender.org.uk
Her role as Chair is a full time job, and is funded 80% by Land Registry (a non-ministerial govt dept) and the other 20% comes from 'the a:gender pot’.
Actually scrap that, it’s us the tax payer, who is funding this non-essential role.
Actually scrap that, it’s us the tax payer, who is funding this non-essential role.
If there’s a need to have a social group to meet the needs of specific groups in the civil service, that’s fair enough, the fact the Land Registry budget is paying for this is quite quite absurd.
On this podcast, from the LGBT Group of The Law Society, at 10 minutes Emma says she isn’t allowed to call herself an ‘intersex activist’ because she works for the govt. https://www.spreaker.com/user/9843450/lgbt-i-podcast-edited
She then starts talking about intersex activists using ‘we’, before correcting herself (tee-hee-hee).
I would agree that Emma isn’t an intersex activist, she’s a trans activist. A trans activist funded by the tax payer. Great. How did we get here?
I would agree that Emma isn’t an intersex activist, she’s a trans activist. A trans activist funded by the tax payer. Great. How did we get here?
Where is the diabetes action group for overweight civil servants? That might actually save lives.
Oh I forgot, something like that would instantly be recognised as activism and kicked into the long grass.
Oh I forgot, something like that would instantly be recognised as activism and kicked into the long grass.
Emma was elected to the role in May 2020 and had been a silent member since 2009, if I understood correctly. She had not been ‘out’ in the workplace as intersex back then and felt a great deal of shame and stigma around it and wanted to get help and support.
Line manager asked ‘why do you want to go and meet those people?’ but she felt she couldn’t say why.
It wasn’t until she got a supportive line manager that she felt able to 'come out' to them. This one was very supportive and allowed her to attend meetings of a:gender for
It wasn’t until she got a supportive line manager that she felt able to 'come out' to them. This one was very supportive and allowed her to attend meetings of a:gender for
further support and presumably to spend her working time doing that.
(Working for the civil service is great, believe me. I used to have a friend who regularly used to go the cinema, he simply told everyone he had an offsite meeting to go to.)
(Working for the civil service is great, believe me. I used to have a friend who regularly used to go the cinema, he simply told everyone he had an offsite meeting to go to.)
Emma attended her first meeting around 2014/5 and it was the first time she ever felt comfortable in her life, where she didn’t feel judged, nor have to explain herself to others.
Emma explained that she had a body which looked female but had XY chromosomes.
Emma explained that she had a body which looked female but had XY chromosomes.
She was told when she was 14 that she was a ‘malformed woman’ but was not told the name of her condition. It wasn’t until aged 21 through her own research she came to realise that the truth that in fact she wasn’t ‘even male or female’.
When she tells people that she’s intersex they reply ‘aren’t we all’. Poor Emma thought she needed to explain the joke. Bless.
The oft used statistic that 1.7% of the population are intersex was used - ‘we’re just everywhere’ - and likened to the prevalence of red hair.
The a:gender website suggests the figure could even be as high as 4% (a higher percentage than the Black ethnic population in the UK).
The a:gender website suggests the figure could even be as high as 4% (a higher percentage than the Black ethnic population in the UK).
Zoey, the trans-identified man said that he had arrived at his realisation over time and that he had left his previous workplace because it was completely phobic. He got the idea of applying to the EA for a job in 2016 after noticing a Rainbow
logo in an email from an EA employee. It was a light bulb moment.
Zoey used the gender neutral term ‘folks’ to avoid using the dreaded M- and W- words.
According to Zoey, CV19 had decimated trans healthcare, before admitting that video
Zoey used the gender neutral term ‘folks’ to avoid using the dreaded M- and W- words.
According to Zoey, CV19 had decimated trans healthcare, before admitting that video
consultations had been instituted and then we were back to waiting lists ‘are something like four years in some instances and that’s just for the first appointments’.
Emma wasn’t happy that her condition, which I learned later is Swyer syndrome, is impossible to research because so few people have it (she said she said affects <1/80,000 people) which was at odds with her picture of intersex conditions being prevalent.
She was upset too that it is referred to as an ‘orphan disease’ i.e. there are too few people with it for the impetus to exist to research it, nor a big enough cohort to study it properly I guess.
Thus, she had to become an expert on her own disease and educate health professionals (referred to as ‘people who should know better, people who I rely on for my care’).
She wanted to be recorded as intersex in her medical record.
She wanted to be recorded as intersex in her medical record.
Zoey felt that healthcare was a lottery but at present his GP was performing the role of monitoring him whilst taking HRT.
Emma had been on ‘HRT’ since the age of 15. She was angry about the lack of variety of products and the frequent shortages in supply.
If 'HRT' had only to be taken by men, this wouldn’t be happening, but because women were ‘second class citizens’, it did.
If 'HRT' had only to be taken by men, this wouldn’t be happening, but because women were ‘second class citizens’, it did.
‘As a feminist I’m very angry that there are routine shortages.’
Intersex people did not exist in administration systems and had no protection in law from discrimination and could not record their status in passports, etc.
Intersex people did not exist in administration systems and had no protection in law from discrimination and could not record their status in passports, etc.
A member of the audience shared his wisdom with us. He’d tried to transition in 1981 via the infamous Charing X clinic and concluded that ‘psychiatrists weren’t specialists’.
Nowadays he had a supportive GP, who presumably also signed
Nowadays he had a supportive GP, who presumably also signed
off his hormone regime (which I think means he was happy that his GP isn’t an endocrinologist specialist).
He had transitioned whilst working at the EA, which he described as a journey for him and his colleagues (‘seriously though they’ve all been brilliant’) even though
He had transitioned whilst working at the EA, which he described as a journey for him and his colleagues (‘seriously though they’ve all been brilliant’) even though
they sometimes use the wrong name ‘but not through malice’.
Phew!
He was invited to an area team leaders meeting to explain what he was doing, which he was happy to do.
Classic civil service crap in other words, I can just picture a plate of biscuits with clingfilm.
Phew!
He was invited to an area team leaders meeting to explain what he was doing, which he was happy to do.
Classic civil service crap in other words, I can just picture a plate of biscuits with clingfilm.
Zoey felt that all the background stuff (pronouns, badges, lanyards, etc) was essential.
Following a meeting with the LGBT+ network group the EA’s CEO, Sir James Bevan, had started using pronouns in his email signature.
Following a meeting with the LGBT+ network group the EA’s CEO, Sir James Bevan, had started using pronouns in his email signature.
Direct action would involve challenging ignorant colleagues and Zoey gave an example of when Ruth Hunt was apparently challenged in a toilet and a friend defended her.
Emma wanted everyone to know that referring to ‘male and female hormones’ was not inclusive language.
Emma wanted everyone to know that referring to ‘male and female hormones’ was not inclusive language.
People should use ‘testosterone’ and ‘oestrogen’ instead (although she’d used HRT repeatedly earlier) because language which was ‘incredibly precise’ was also ‘incredibly inclusive’ and people like her ‘would really really notice that’.
Emma could only feel safe around people who understood these nuances of language and knew that she would not hear ‘nonsense’ from such people.
(Strange how this doesn’t work with the word ‘woman’ for trans activists.)
(Strange how this doesn’t work with the word ‘woman’ for trans activists.)
Trans people, especially trans women, had faced a tsunami of hatred, Emma said.
She claimed to hear all the time when she was an ‘intersex person in the closet’ things like ‘oh these trans people are idiots, everybody knows that people with XY chromosomes you’re a man and
She claimed to hear all the time when she was an ‘intersex person in the closet’ things like ‘oh these trans people are idiots, everybody knows that people with XY chromosomes you’re a man and
and you always will be’ and ‘if you’re born with a vagina you’re a woman’.
The horror.
People used to look at her and think she was ‘safe’ i.e. a white straight (‘I’m in a relationship with a man’, 'I'm straight', 'I'm heterosexual') cisgender woman and that they would
The horror.
People used to look at her and think she was ‘safe’ i.e. a white straight (‘I’m in a relationship with a man’, 'I'm straight', 'I'm heterosexual') cisgender woman and that they would
feel ‘safe to come out with that stuff’. Such utterances had affected her ability to come out as intersex.
The question below was asked about what to say with regards to the issue of single sex spaces.
The question below was asked about what to say with regards to the issue of single sex spaces.
The host confirmed that she had heard those ‘things’ said at the EA, and she didn’t think it acceptable.
Emma answered the question by saying that women-only spaces should be retained because TWAW and the problem was predatory men. All men needed to get into the ladies loos
Emma answered the question by saying that women-only spaces should be retained because TWAW and the problem was predatory men. All men needed to get into the ladies loos
were 'overalls and a bucket’. The problem was male violence and TW experienced far higher levels of violence than women.
Emma didn’t want to advocate for safe spaces for women, she wanted to be free of gendered violence and that ‘we can’t throw other women under the bus’
Emma didn’t want to advocate for safe spaces for women, she wanted to be free of gendered violence and that ‘we can’t throw other women under the bus’
especially when they are more vulnerable to violence.
Zoey naturally agreed and said that the life expectancy of black TW was 35 years, killed normally as a result of domestic violence by male partners.
‘We’re no different,’ he said, contradicting himself.
Zoey naturally agreed and said that the life expectancy of black TW was 35 years, killed normally as a result of domestic violence by male partners.
‘We’re no different,’ he said, contradicting himself.
The host said she’d seen a lot of comments in the media at the moment and again repeated ‘it’s not acceptable’. TWAW and there could be no further discussion on this.
Then there was a question about how to be more inclusive of the multiplicity of gender identities.
Zoey admitted he had a ‘big fat F’ on all his documentation so he did not show up as being trans on any systems.
Zoey admitted he had a ‘big fat F’ on all his documentation so he did not show up as being trans on any systems.
The lesbian wondered whether we would ever get past the binary and bemoaned the fact that a lot of people didn’t understand.
Emma felt it would happen but ‘not in her lifetime’. Then she repeated what I’ve heard trans activists say before, that intersex children are the only
Emma felt it would happen but ‘not in her lifetime’. Then she repeated what I’ve heard trans activists say before, that intersex children are the only
minority targeted to have their bodies changed by the medical profession.
I recently asked Great Ormond Street Hospital about this, and they confirmed that cosmetic surgeries on children with DSDs aren't performed and that no operations had been performed in the last two years
I recently asked Great Ormond Street Hospital about this, and they confirmed that cosmetic surgeries on children with DSDs aren't performed and that no operations had been performed in the last two years
for health reasons. It is against NHS policy currently to perform these surgeries on children with DSDs.
Yet again, it is worth noting that this trans activist, so concerned with a non-existent problem, expressed no concern for young children being put on GnRH agonists.
Yet again, it is worth noting that this trans activist, so concerned with a non-existent problem, expressed no concern for young children being put on GnRH agonists.
The host had two small children. She had explained the toilet situation to her 5 year old son and even he got it! She had hope that the younger generation would bring about change and it will become normalised.
It was a ray of hope.
It was a ray of hope.
There was also this stand out comment, asking for Zoey’s advice on a menopause information pack, proving that ‘gender neutral’ language is to please men, rather than (trans-identified) women.
Emma encouraged people on the call to join the a:gender network group as allies and a couple of women expressed interest in completing membership forms.
@threadreaderapp please unroll
