Soooooo two churches in the local conference of the Brethren denomination have been doing joint YouTube services since March. One, Lititz, is moderate. The other, Etown, is progressive and lgbtqia+ affirming. Today they gave a sermon on “homosexuality” which is HUGE because

The pastor of Lititz was in the room, someone I know is privately affirming but leads a moderate church and hasn’t come out as affirming. So this could be really big, I’m gonna watch it on YouTube now and live tweet

Here it is:

For starters I wish they said “queer people” or “LGBTQ+ people” instead of “homosexuality”

Opening questions: how many verses are about love and how many verses are about homosexuality?

I don’t like how that q asks people to think about gay people less rather than become affirming of gay people. But I’ve seen it push moderates towards listening to queer people

“We understand that this service might make some of you uncomfortable, and we don’t look down on you for that” wtf yes I do? Why would I respect senseless feelings of disgust towards me

Children’s story: “families come in all shapes and sizes; it’s the love that matters”

Used to talk about young kids wanting more siblings, used to talk about divorse, used to talk about chosen family and used to talk about queer families

Omg the lititz pastor came on stage immediately after the children’s story just affirmed gay marriages!!!! Said nothing about queer ppl though, just prayer requests. His prayer was fully of “all are welcome” buzzwords and phrases though

Talked about the need to combat oppression in his prayer too, mentioning “racism, bigotry, sexism, and a whole multitude of -phobias” so close lol

Okay the etown pastor is back for the homosexuality sermon. She’s gonna explain her own story and focus on theology it sounds like.

“I will not be representing balanced viewpoints. This is my story. You may or may not agree with some of the things I say, and that’s okay, in fact it’s really a much richer conversation when we don’t all believe exactly the same things.”

Unless we’re talking about the...

...Humanity of queer people, right? Right??

“I will love you even if we don’t see eye to eye. I hope it’s mutual” if you don’t see eye to eye that lgbtq people are human then they might still love you but that means it’s not mutual with me. That’s what that means.

She mentioned the brethren and Mennonite council for lgbtq issues! Yes yes yes yes yes

“Traditions and scripture seemed so clear, and yet seemed to fly in the face of a loving God” been there done that.

Payoff! Only SEVEN verses mention “homosexuality”! Who knew?

Homosexuality is not a big theme in the Bible but love is. Okay but gay people do exist

Aw man here we go through the clobber verses

Funny how they still feel a bit clobber-y even when they’re being “proven” irrelevant. Maybe it has something to do with that it’s putting my existence up for debate. but also maybe not!

Men ejaculating into another man was equivalent to abortion in the minds of old testiment Israelites #intersectionality

Homosexuality is only *not* an abomination when it’s in a loving committed relationship

The str8s said we’re good*!

Genuinely fascinating and inspiring story of the first man in her old church or ordained women there. It’s the story that led her to become lgbtq+marriage affirming now

History about etown, issued a statement in the 80s about being “quietly affirming” and being “open to all.” The word “quietly” isn’t great, especially in the 80s... but it is nice that they haven’t had to change to being affirming. That tells me they, as an institution, get it

2 years ago, the denomination proposed a policy to punish clergy who officiate same-gender weddings. This pastor spoke against it in front of the whole denomination, citing her work she was already doing with queer families and individuals. Great stuff!!!

Noooooooooo she said the “A” in LGBTQIA+ means “Allies” literally the ace erasure right there

You are called to stand up for us because we are human, not because you are also a queer... Because you’re not... and neither is most of your audience...

Keeping restraint to not look at the live chat lmao

The lititz pastor wants to sit with the etown pastor’s words what does it meaaannn

Q&A time

“Have you always been so accepting of lgbt people?”
-She didn’t fully know until 40 years ago. People around back then are her target audience

Lititz pastor commends her courage to take on the denomination, and says he knows about many people of all ages who feel they have to be closeted allies because they’re afraid of getting in trouble by the system. But he has friends who are literally oppressed.

He commends her for her vulnerability in expressing emotion and mentions how powerful that was for him.

Oh he didn’t have a question lmao

A friend of mine sent in a question over the chat: “what does it mean to be an ally?”

You know who should be on the stage right now to answer that question

Oo their talking about their roles in the denomination politics and them trying to be an ally

Lititz pastor condemns the name-calling sent toward one of the etown pastors

But we realize the real problem is deeper than name calling right? Like maybe the homophobia was bad too

Maybe? Will we talk about that pls?

Nope we’re just talking about politics ok

Etown confirms that they will perform a same-gender marriage. Okay lititz your turn what is your policy

“I hope the conversations continue”

Lititz pastor talks about my friend who asked the question, how they texted back and forth about making progress at lititz.

Oh lititz has a support group for parents of lgbtq+ kids

What kind of support group?

another question “how can we as Christians reassure lgbtq friends and family that we do support them?”

“Make it plain,” lititz pastor says.

We need to talk about what we’re making plane though:

We need to say more than “I love you.” My parents said that but still wanted me to turn straight. Not enough.

Try “I love you, I love that you’re gay, and I support you persuing love with someone of any gender” or something like that. Be direct and plain, yes but also *CLEAR*

“When posed with opposition on this idea of acceptance from other Christians, what’s the best way to respond to that?”

Etown pastor says they are getting better at knowing what changes minds

Becoming affirming was painful and difficult for etown cob. There are disagreements among members. Them being “open to all” includes people who are not with them “all the way with this lgbtq+ stuff”

Y’all realize that means many lgbtq+ members are not welcomed there right?

Lititz pastor takes a turn at answering.
People are owed kindness and dignity. Giving people anger doesn’t produce good fruit.

This thread is fruitless, y’all! Sorry if you read this far because it had no benefit

Lititz pastor continues: “you said it well, Pam, at the beginning of the sermon, ‘you may not agree with me but I still love you.’ I hope you choose to love me in return as well, as a part of this conversation.”

Nooo...

Okay then the lititz pastor started explaining that homophobia is a result of generational suppression of lgbtq+ voices. I mean he’s 100% right but... that doesn’t justify it or make you any more inclusive or good as a church lmao

For that matter it doesn’t make you more qualified to be talking about this

Especially since thERE ARE NO QUEER PEOPLE ON STAGE WITH YOU

Lititz pastor has talked to some of the youth. The youth are tired of being told by the denomination to wait and wait and wait. Dialogue needs to happen now, and they, as pastors need to make space for that dialogue now. Besides, what are we waiting for?

Yes yes yes yes yes. All of that. But we can’t just “have dialogue,” it matters how we talk about issues faced by queer people. It’s bothersome that homophobia isn’t being discussed, just gay marriage (and really just sex, as the point of tension). It’s mostly bothersome that

Everyone on stage is cisgender heterosexual. But to be honest I would not feel comfortable to be on stage with them, because they are constantly saying that my existence is something that we can all just “agree to disagree about.”

That doesn’t mean y’all straight people need to have dialogue on behalf of me, that means your dialogue is already super fucked up.

Idk maybe they were in conversation with queer people before getting up there, and they all gave the go ahead. These aren’t small churches,

But they aren’t mega churches either, and their influence is definitely just local. But that influence extends to the communities in which I grew up, the ones that hurt me so badly. And that’s what is at stake, not just whether love is love, but whether lgbtq+ folks get to exist

The etown pastor said that a way to support lgbtq+ people is to post this sermon to Facebook!

Sure.

“Post it to Facebook, see how judgemental people are!”

it’s okay to condemn hatred I promise you won’t be a hypocrite unless you’re also a homophobe

Lititz pastor: “I hope this sermon is shared far and wide because I know far too many people who wanna have the conversation.”

“This is what it means to be the ‘A,’ the ally... I’m hoping to live in a way where... they’ve seen it modeled”

Sir you are neither queer nor an ally

Oop that’s the end

There’s literally so much I still don’t know...

Things I know:
-etown is fully affiming toward lgb people
-etown is fully affirming towards same-gender marriages
-etown does not center queer people when talking about queer people
-lititz has a “support group” for parents of lgbtq+ people
-Both churches want to keep up dialogue

-Ace people have been plowed over yet again
-and neither church values clarity for lgbtqia+ people

Things I don’t know:
-have y’all heard of transgender folks?
-does etown ordain lgbtq+ people? Is there any kind of glass ceiling?

-what the fuck are lititz’s policies and beliefs about lgbtq+ people?
-Is this lititz pastor affirming or unaffirming of gay marriage?
-what is the purpose of this support group? If this was middle creek church, another in the same denomination, it would be a focus on the family

support group for mourning the loss of their straight child so forgive me for being unsure when you haven’t explained one bit about your church’s stance
-sure, y’all are advocating for more dialogue, and again, yes yes yes that is what is needed. But can you make room for queer

anger? Will you respond to critiques that don’t come off as kind? Are you aware that, for many of us, this is or has been a matter of life and death?

I think I mentioned the first name of one of the pastors, which I apologize for, because I was intentionally trying to leave those out. Pastors have a lot of power, and that power is in how they represent the entire church institution...

..., which is really what I’m calling out. The Brethren denomination has brutally failed LGBTQ+ people. Horrifically. And y’all are part of that too, even if it just means you were quiet in the 80s. I get that there are reasons for why things are have been bad. I get that...

...Better than most. But that doesn’t change how bad it is. The reasons don’t doesn’t change the material reality, and you are responsible for that in whatever capacity you have power within that denomination.

And so my sentiment in this thread is to hold these institutions accountable, these influential churches within our, as you said, polarized community.

I have to think more about this. I think it’s good that it exists, but I have to think. It certainly will be influential.

But if that influence is used to tell churches like middle creek that, “hey, yes we disagree, but we can do so peacefully apart from each other,” I want you to say that to the faces of every queer child that will grow up in middle creek and face that “disagreement” head on.

If you want to use that influence to tell your non-affirming members that you don’t judge them for not tearing down their own bigotry from that generational sin you mentioned, I hope you are aware that giving bigotry space means pushing out the marginalized.

As prominent churches within the brethren denomination you do have plenty of influence to use however you choose. It sounds like you’re aware of the systemic structures that maintain the homophobic status quo. Choosing to keep cishet voices centered doesn’t change that at all.

Keeping discussions about beliefs in the abstract realm of “peaceful disagreement” doesn’t reflect reality at all. Homophobia is a material force that harms people. But I’m not sure you mentioned homophobia even once. Just theologies and platitudes of peace and kindness

The best material in this was your emphasis that families are defined by love, not shape or size, or the assertions that love is love. The etown folks seem to get on some level that queer existence isn’t founded on complex or nuanced ideologies. We just are who we are

But in trying to use your influence more practically, you’re sacrificing the rawness of our humanity for the sake of appealing to the homophobia that says “accepting is difficult and challenging and it takes a long time.”

That is only because of homophobia, not queerness

That your sermon was a justification for queer love rather than a condemnation of homophobia is telling.

You can sermons against homophobia and sermons in support of queer people. But this was queer people on trial masked as sermon against hatred

I’m rambling, so I guess I’ll close my thoughts with this,

Churches like middle creek don’t care about queer people. Lititz and etown clearly do, to some extent. But lititz and etown are riding on the supposition that the opposition does care, and to support that belief,...

...they are sacrificing the humanity of queer people. It’s not explicit or loud or clear at all. But it’s happening here, and I hope all my critiques amount to showing you that.

I offer you the solution: Be clear. Explicitly denounce homophobia, not as simply a disagreement...

... but as a moral failing that hurts and kills people. Explicitly announce your support for LGBTQIA+ people through *church policies* and *belief statements.* For that you have to actually talk about everyone in the acronym, not just lgb folks.

And prove your commitment to combating institutional homophobia by having these conversations, yes, but also by showing it in your work, and in actually centering queer voices so we dont have so many of these problems next time

And if these things cannot be done, then I know where you actually stand in the structural problem.

Either way, clarity is gonna come.

Peace

(Idk if I’m actually gonna share this thread to anyone but I was writing as if I was in case I do decide to)