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Why I am Against the Retro-Retro Hugos: A Thread
Why I am Against the Retro-Retro Hugos: A Thread
So there has been some suggestions from people to extend the Retro Hugos to years prior to the first WorldCon.
The ideas for this seem attractive at first. There are more works in the public domain from this period so easier to catchup.
The ideas for this seem attractive at first. There are more works in the public domain from this period so easier to catchup.
And we already have the world war two years now added when there were no WorldCons so why not extend it backwards.
Maybe be able to highlight writers who don't get enough credit like Leslie F. Stone or George Schuyler?
Maybe be able to highlight writers who don't get enough credit like Leslie F. Stone or George Schuyler?
However, 1938 works as a good cutoff date for me. A year after The Hobbit's publication & Snow White was released.
The first full year of Campbell's Astounding, The Sword in the Stone, Out of the silent Planet & Galactic Patrol came out.
We can start to see the modern field.
The first full year of Campbell's Astounding, The Sword in the Stone, Out of the silent Planet & Galactic Patrol came out.
We can start to see the modern field.
Also around this time publication as we know it really starts to ramp up so we have a lot more works to choose from.
If you start to go back further you move from dealing with a problematic field to wading through a cesspool.
If you start to go back further you move from dealing with a problematic field to wading through a cesspool.
To show this I decided to have a look at what a likely Retro-Retro Hugo would like if next year we did one for 90 years ago (AKA the 1931 RRH for 1930 nominees).
So here is a potential finalists list:
So here is a potential finalists list:
Novel
A Fighting Man of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs
Tarzan At The Earth's Core - Edgar Rice Burroughs
Skylark Three - Edward E. Smith
Last and First Men - Olaf Stapledon
The Yellow Knight of Oz - Ruth Plumly Thompson
Gladiator - Philip Wylie (Knopf)
A Fighting Man of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs
Tarzan At The Earth's Core - Edgar Rice Burroughs
Skylark Three - Edward E. Smith
Last and First Men - Olaf Stapledon
The Yellow Knight of Oz - Ruth Plumly Thompson
Gladiator - Philip Wylie (Knopf)
Novella
The Black Star Passes - John W. Campbell
Jetta of the Lowlands - Ray Cummings
A Year in a Day - Erle Stanley Gardner
The Universe Wreckers - Edmond Hamilton
The Moon of Skulls - Robert E. Howard
The Beetle Horde - Victor Rousseau
The Black Star Passes - John W. Campbell
Jetta of the Lowlands - Ray Cummings
A Year in a Day - Erle Stanley Gardner
The Universe Wreckers - Edmond Hamilton
The Moon of Skulls - Robert E. Howard
The Beetle Horde - Victor Rousseau
Novelette
Piracy Preferred - John W. Campbell
Solarite - John W. Campbell
The Electric Executioner - Adolphe de Castro & H. P. Lovecraft (Weird)
Creatures of the Light - Sophie Wenzel Ellis
The Hills of The Dead - Robert E. Howard
The End of The Story - Clark Ashton Smith
Piracy Preferred - John W. Campbell
Solarite - John W. Campbell
The Electric Executioner - Adolphe de Castro & H. P. Lovecraft (Weird)
Creatures of the Light - Sophie Wenzel Ellis
The Hills of The Dead - Robert E. Howard
The End of The Story - Clark Ashton Smith
Short Story
The Corpse on the Grating - Hugh B. Cave
Spawn of the Stars - Charles Willard Diffin
The Man Who Saw the Future - Edmond Hamilton
A Visitor from Egypt - Frank Belknap Long
The Uncharted Isle - Clark Ashton Smith
The Cosmic Express - Jack Williamson
The Corpse on the Grating - Hugh B. Cave
Spawn of the Stars - Charles Willard Diffin
The Man Who Saw the Future - Edmond Hamilton
A Visitor from Egypt - Frank Belknap Long
The Uncharted Isle - Clark Ashton Smith
The Cosmic Express - Jack Williamson
Drama Short Form
Le Sang d'un Poète - Dir. Jean Cocteau
Outward Bound - Dir. Robert Milton and Ray Enright
Playful Pan - Dir. Bert Gillert
The Devil's Cabaret - Dir. Nick Grindé
The Return of Dr. Fu Manchu - Dir. Rowland V. Lee
The Bat Whispers - Dir. Roland West
Le Sang d'un Poète - Dir. Jean Cocteau
Outward Bound - Dir. Robert Milton and Ray Enright
Playful Pan - Dir. Bert Gillert
The Devil's Cabaret - Dir. Nick Grindé
The Return of Dr. Fu Manchu - Dir. Rowland V. Lee
The Bat Whispers - Dir. Roland West
Best Editor Short Form
Harry Bates (Astounding)
Archibald Bittner (Argosy)
Hugo Gernsback (Wonder Group)
Donald Kennicott (Blue Book)
T. O'Conor Sloane (Amazing)
Farnsworth Wright (Oriental, Weird)
Harry Bates (Astounding)
Archibald Bittner (Argosy)
Hugo Gernsback (Wonder Group)
Donald Kennicott (Blue Book)
T. O'Conor Sloane (Amazing)
Farnsworth Wright (Oriental, Weird)
Best Professional Artist
Earle Bergey
J. Allen St. John
Leo Morey
John R. Neill
Hubert Rogers
H. W. Wesso
Earle Bergey
J. Allen St. John
Leo Morey
John R. Neill
Hubert Rogers
H. W. Wesso
The other categories would be likely dropped.
Related work and series only made the RH ballot for the first time this year
Fanzines had only just started in 1930
Not really enough Long Drama to make a full finalist list (but some interesting ones like Just Imagine & Alarune)
Related work and series only made the RH ballot for the first time this year
Fanzines had only just started in 1930
Not really enough Long Drama to make a full finalist list (but some interesting ones like Just Imagine & Alarune)
In graphic story I think it would struggle to get enough finalists. Little Nemo was over and Buck Rogers comics had just started. With being years away from the Kings Comics strips or even Alley Oop the SF field is a little thin.
With the actual finalists there are a large number of problematic folks here you have to contend with.
Burroughs works are suffused with racism and white supremacy. If you scroll down on this blog they have a large selection of links on how problematic his work is: https://thejohncarterfiles.com/2015/12/legend-of-tarzan-reboots-the-debate-was-edgar-rice-burroughs-a-racist/
Skylark Three is a story that is born out of colonialists tropes about savages which ends with the hero committing genocide as a solution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylark_Three
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylark_Three
Whilst I don't know much about Ruth Plumly Thompson's views, Oz creator L. Frank Baum wrote editorials calling for Sioux genocide. For a long time Native Americans have been asking people to stop honouring him, Here is an article on it from 2000: https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/was-frank-baum-a-racist-or-just-the-creator-of-oz-eF1p5yEKUkOZnXOfXgau_Q
Gladiator itself has a complicated legacy. I am yet to read so I don't know how well it contends with the issues but it created the white superman genre which has been a favourite of white supremacists ever since.
First and Last Men is a book tightly wound up with eugenics and the racial view of science full of racist passages. Below is just one of many examples of how these ideas suffuse the book.
John W. Campbell published the first three stories of his Arcot, Morey & Wade series that might all get on the ballot in this year. His numerous problems are widely chronicled but here is Cory Doctorow rounding it up nicely after Jeannette Ng's speech: https://locusmag.com/2019/11/cory-doctorow-jeannette-ng-was-right-john-w-campbell-was-a-fascist/
Lovecraft again is widely discussed and I think well known so I will just link you to an excellent overview from Lithub:
https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/
And also give you a discussion of this particular story at Tor:
https://www.tor.com/2017/02/15/ia-ill-show-them-all-lovecraft-and-adolphe-de-castros-the-electric-executioner/
https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-p-lovecrafts-white-supremacy/
And also give you a discussion of this particular story at Tor:
https://www.tor.com/2017/02/15/ia-ill-show-them-all-lovecraft-and-adolphe-de-castros-the-electric-executioner/
For some reason less well discussed is Robert E. Howard's racism. For some reason the Wikipedia page on his racism reads like a white apologists bingo card. But most Howard's works make Lovecraft look like NK Jemisin.
Jason Sanford put it very well:
"Robert E. Howard was a racist. Deal with it." http://www.jasonsanford.com/jason/2010/09/20/robert-howard-racist
"Robert E. Howard was a racist. Deal with it." http://www.jasonsanford.com/jason/2010/09/20/robert-howard-racist
These two particular works are Solomon Kane in Africa, tales of a white puritan going into Africa to seek terrible evils that lurk. These stories are just as bad as you imagine them but still regularly get reprinted and applauded.
(I have to take a break to eat now. More ramblings soon)
Ramblings resuming!
As I see it is not immediately obvious from looking here is the second half of the thread https://twitter.com/hammard_1987/status/1292177958917083138?s=19
