This whole thread hits on a lot of my feelings about TLOU2.

I also have a LOT of thoughts about how the game tries (unsuccessfully, imo) to reckon with the ending of the first game, but I still haven't figured out how best to express them. https://twitter.com/carmenmmachado/status/1283432629677719553

The closest I can get without writing a full-on essay is to say they're asking the wrong questions. Both games ask (TLOU2, explicitly so) if Joel made the "right" decision.

I'd argue the real question is whether it was HIS decision to make. The games never quite address that.

Ellie mentions it once or twice (especially in the scene where Joel tells her what he did), but she never gets to DO anything with those feelings. Her plot starts with the desire for revenge--and it *never goes anywhere else*

The game is primarily interested in the consequences of Joel's actions on JOEL and how those consequences in turn affect Ellie.

But the game doesn't care much about the consequences of Joel's actions on ELLIE.

We see hints of it (their strained relationship) but basically as soon as the game starts, we're off to revenge land and the past four years matter only inasmuch as we get a few extended flashbacks leading to her discovery of his choice.

But we DON'T see the fallout of that.

The game's primarily concerned with the idea that "violence begets violence." But I'd argue they missed the most compelling question at the absolute core of the franchise:

Bodily autonomy. Who deserves it, to what extent, when can it be stripped, by whom, for what purpose, etc.

We never get to see Ellie process that. We know she feels Joel betrayed her, that she'll "never forgive him," but it feels...hollow because it's never explored any further.

(Also important to note that these are ZOMBIE games, and the devs seem largely unaware(?) of the incredible metaphorical implications of zombies in a story whose defining moment hinges on bodily autonomy.)

ANYWAY. Violence begets violence, sure.

But part of why Joel's choice was so interesting in the first game was all the contradictions and nuances wrapped up in it.

Things that have REAL WORLD analogs and consequences. Esp. for disabled bodies, double esp. disabled children.

TLOU2 asks, essentially, whether Joel "should" have saved Ellie. It's the question of one life vs. the many. And I think it's the wrong one--or the least interesting, anyway.

[SPOILER] In a game centered (at least initially) on Ellie, I don't care about what Joel "should" have done. I care about how what he did affects Ellie.

Instead, all we get is how Joel's *death* affects her. And that just feels like a shame and a waste.

Anyway, the piece Carmen originally linked to is indeed fantastic and hits on a lot of the other related issues.

"...the problem of motivation that undercuts every part of Ellie’s story."

Yes. Exactly. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jgxjxx/problems-with-last-of-us-part-2-ending