All the discussion about pre-doc programs reminds me that very few people in US academia know the reality of those who come from developing countries. I guess the discussion was probably about american undergrads, but I thought I'd share a different perspective, fwiw: (1/N)

After an undergrad program that takes 5-6 years to complete (this is the standard in Peru, where I come from -but it's similar in most of South America), if we want to be admitted to a top US PhD program our options are:

a) an expensive master in some other country, b) a ~5 year qeue in the Central Bank waiting to go to grad school, c) a grossly underpaid RA position with placement prospects that are not great because Peru is not connected to US academia.

You can see how a 2-year pre-doc fellowship in the US with a competitive salary and educational opportunities is really desirable for us. Now, take this together with the fact that in my pre-doc program, the first cohort was made up of 13 US graduates vs 15 internationals

and you can see why the claim that "pre-doc positions are filled by people who could get into a PhD without it, anyway, and it's an unncessary lengthening of the academic track" resonates so little with me.

It's really alienating reading american fellows posting things like "now I have to apply at 25 instead of 22" when my prospects were...applying at 28

Since I decided to tweet about this, I'll also add a couple more things, decidedly anecdotal: I've read that predoc RAships worsen nepotism in the profession. Nepotism exists everywhere, and it's pretty bad in developing countries. You'd be surprised, but

off the top of my head, I can think of a bunch of excellent fellow Peruvians who made it in US academia before "making it" in the Peruvian academic circle of friends.

I've also read that it skews research towards applied in detriment of theory. Being in probably the largest pre-doc program I see that 1) the 1-2 people who really want to do theory, do it anyway, but ...

2) it's hard to find funding for theory pre-docs. Many of us are funded through policy-oriented initiatives, but this is not exclusive of pre-doc programs, or am I wrong?

Anyway, really looking forward to seeing the results of NYU's pre-docs' survey about the current situation of pre-docs around the country. End of thread.