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So, lets talk about Thorin's video on Cloud9. I have to start by saying, I am prob biased towards liking this lineup, and Thorin seems biased to not liking the lineup. Before I get into his quotes on the specific players, lets talk about his quotes on the org as a whole. (1/23)
He said he thinks they should get a whole new lineup built of the best superstars, or get a couple up and coming FPL stars. The problem with this is building a lineup of superstars was something they tried in that 18 month period after the major. (2/23)
They tried bringing in some of the best available NA talent and some overseas players (Flusha, kioshima, cajunb, golden, daps, koosta, subroza). They also tried bringing in some of the 'FPL stars' (tenz, zellsis, refresh). None of those lineups worked out. (3/23)
Now, if you say, 'Those aren't Superstars', that gets onto my next point which also includes him saying C9 should just buy a top 5 lineup. Cloud9 has NEVER been the org to just dump money on rosters. Thats what Liquid, EG, and other orgs do with huge investors behind them (4/23)
Cloud9 has a huge history of growing their talent. Stewie, tons of League of Legends players, the Rocket League team, etc. They don't historically make these gigantic big money splashes. They invest in young talent and give them the chance to grow. (5/23)
And where has this landed them? As the most successful international NA organization. I guarantee you they aren't going to buy a top team. Why do you think they bought ATK instead of NRG? Now onto what he says about players themselves. (6/23)
He says they will never be good enough. The ages of C9 players are 21/21/21/20/20. EG is 26/24/22/20/20. Liquid 24/22/22/22/20. And all of the 20 year olds have 2-3 more years in the pro scene than C9. Give this team time, you can't count them out in their rookie year. (7/23)
In sports, the rookie year is where you accept mistakes, hope to see flashes, and see how they grow to succeed at the highest level. Year 2 is where you expect a leap. Lets see what happens then because we have absolutely seen the flashes and have seen growth. (8/23)
'oSee wont be a good enough player, needs to be a top 5 awper' - In oSee's rookie year he has out dueled Cerq and Autimatic. You could argue he is already in the top 3 awpers in NA with Cerq and Fallen. And he has only gotten better. (9/23)
'Smashed at IEM' - This tournament is brought up CONSTANTLY. Probably b/c it was the only lan they played basically, but, they lost a bo3 to Astralis. And then lost to NIP. Thats it. Wasn't like they lost 5 bo3s. They did great qualifying and played well against Astralis. (10/23)
'Floppy is not a hard carry' - This whole team is set up for teamwork. It is not set up at all for one player to shine or carry. So, no player is going to look like a hard carry. (11/23)
'JT is too bad at fragging' / 'JT tries to play around having bad aim and play off people' - The second quote is the opposite of what I have seen. JT is not playing around anyone, he is always in FRONT of everyone, sacrificing for the others. (12/23)
(JT cont.) I have not seen a lot of times where he whiffs or is bad, but, I have seen a lot of times where he is pushing through smokes first or entry'ing first to die so the rest of the team can go off. He gets SUCH a bad wrap cause of the scoreboard. (13/23)
'Weak CT side' - Lets look at numbers:
Overpass: 63.4% - All: 52.6%
Dust2: 46.8% - All: 47.5%
Train: 49.4% - All: 53.3%
Inferno: 52.5% - All: 48.9%
Nuke: 50.7% - All: 54.1% Vertigo: 45.1% - All: 47.3%
The only 2 they are significantly below on are Train and Nuke. (14/23)
Overpass: 63.4% - All: 52.6%
Dust2: 46.8% - All: 47.5%
Train: 49.4% - All: 53.3%
Inferno: 52.5% - All: 48.9%
Nuke: 50.7% - All: 54.1% Vertigo: 45.1% - All: 47.3%
The only 2 they are significantly below on are Train and Nuke. (14/23)
Nuke is (was?) their worst map, so, that makes sense The other is Train. I believe this is low because of a weaknesses in closing out games. On train they are usually so far ahead, I think that causes them to relax a little on CT side which is why it is down. (15/23)
On the other side, they are CRAZY ahead on Overpass, and significantly ahead on Inferno. Inferno he mentions in this video as a CT weakness, and has many times before. Says that they are bad on CT side and cites motm as being a bad pit player. So, lets talk about that: (16/23)
From what I can remember, Thorin bashing motm in pit stemmed from a single Flashpoint map. motm made a couple bad decisions that were being spectated and since then, I have heard him talk about how bad he is there multiple times. (17/23)
You have to remember this ENTIRE team is rookies, so bad decisions and bad maps are going to happen. Also, being a pit player can be SO tough. If things go wrong you literally have a team exec'ing on top of you. Its not the same as getting flashed in for a pick down banana(18/23)
They are trained on you, know where you are, and you have to try and go legend (which he has multiple times). To just flat out say he is a garbage pit player because of that map when they win 4% more CT rounds than what is average is unfounded in my opinion. (19/23)
All this to say, I think the team is doing so well. I think Thorin is and has been too harsh on this team and has had negative attitude towards them since the beginning. I think his takes/opinions are being painted in that same light. (20/23)
You have to give it to the players grit to be able to have all this coming at them from a person who is literally paid by their organization. It is SUCH a difference to be a rookie hopping onto a vet team instead of being a full team trying to figure it all out together. (21/23)
No one on the team has a rock to lean on when it gets tough. They are just slugging it out and building their own foundation together. That is impressive. As Reapered has said, "Lose is improve", and that is so true with rookies. Every mistake is a learning opportunity. (22/23)
I think Cloud9 is going to let this team stay together, and I agree. Lets see where it goes. Even if we bought Liquid's roster, that doesn't mean we instantly get another major. We have a solid team. Lets enjoy the ride to the top instead of trying to skip the line. (23/23)
Also, just in case it needs to be said, I didn't mention Sonic, not b/c I agree with him saying Sonic is bad, but, he didn't really give any points on why he thinks he is bad, so, wasn't really any response possible other than 'no he isnt'.
Also also, I dont think it came across this way, but, just in case it did, this wasn't a bash on Thorin at all. I just personally disagree and wanted to talk about why I thought differently and hopefully give good references with it.
