1/n “Ka’ba’s location has to be biggest debate of modern times, for the present one isn’t what historical sources say.”

I elaborate my studies in thread below, while drawing references from “Quranic Geography” by Dan Gibson. https://books.google.com/books/about/Quranic_Geography.html?id=elaQuAAACAAJ

2/n In the final section of his book Gibson talks about the city of Mecca which is mentioned once in Skra 48. Quranic commentators have always tried to link the location of Bekka in Skra 3:96 with Mecca.

3/n There are multiple references in the Quran to the sacred place,
the Ka’ba,& the house; terms which are universally associated with Mecca today. Nevertheless, the Quran doesn’t mention strongly that the Ka’ba was located in Mecca.

Let me quote references in Quran.

4/n
While Quran (3.96) mentions “Bekka”, we find mention of “Mecca” in (48.24). Refer Snippets.

It must be noted that “Quran” was being revealed to Muhammad till his death.

5/n Though Islamic scholars have shown zero interest to doubt the commonly believed Mecca’s location, but, some recent historians have raised questions.

Let me refer to Dr. Patricia Crone’s book “Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam”.

6/n Dr Crone, mentions that the descriptions of Mecca in Islamic literature don’t seem to match the present day location of Mecca.

Prior to it,Dr. Crone co-authored a book with Michael Cook called “Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World”.

7/n In that book they proposed a theory that “Islam, as represented by contemporary, Non-Muslim sources, was in essence a tribal rebellion against the Byzantine and Persian empires with deep roots in Judaism, and that Arabs and Jews were allies in these conquering communities.”

8/n Reference for 7/n & 9/n: Sean Gannon 2008-12-04, “The gospel truth?” The Jerusalem Post

This theory became popular but strong opposition made Crone’s later arguments about Mecca were obscured and eventually lost to the wider Muslim audience. https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Guest-Columnist-The-gospel-truth

9/n Gibson discovered while discussing early Islamic history with Muslim scholars that as soon as one mentioned Dr. Crone,the conversation immediately focuses on the “Hagarism” theory,often with angry reactions. It became impossible for them to address her thoughts.

10/n Now I’ll put across several problems which exist with the location of Mecca. I’ll also share my explorations for the possibility that Mecca was originally located elsewhere and later moved to where it sits today.

11/n Early Mentions of the Holy City

Gibson first time found this as an issue when talking to Muslims who had returned from their maiden Haj. They were surprised at the smallness of mountains,the distance they were from the city & expressed a vague dissatisfaction.

12/n They were disheartened that it wasn’t what they had imagined when reading the Quran & the Hadiths. This made Gibson wonder if they had wrong expectations bcoz they had misinterpreted the passages, or if the passages themselves said something that didn’t match the location.

13/n Now let’s look at some of the notions people have gained from reading ancient Islamic literature, and deduce how the present location of Mecca doesn’t seem to match these descriptions.

Read on

14/n A) Mentioned as the “mother of all cities”

This is a term which brings to mind either a large and impressive city or a city of great antiquity.

Check this snippet. Quran, 6.92

15/n The term mother of all cities (Umm al-Qura) is still used for Mecca and Muslim scholars try to point out that it is worthy of this description.

Ref: Historic cities and sacred sites : cultural roots for urban futures (English), by Serageldin, Ismail; Shluger, Ephim; pg 8

16/n In 2002 Gibson got chance to visit the Second Conference on Nabataean Studies organized by the Al Hussein Bin Talal University at Petra, Jordan. During the conference he had occasion to speak with several leading Jordanian & Saudi archeologists.

17/n He asked them specifically about the archeological record in and around Mecca. Requesting not to be quoted publicly, they admitted that the archeological record at Mecca was basically non-existent before 900 AD.

18/n Gibson had expected them to defend the opinion that ancient Mecca was a walled city with houses, gardens, public buildings and temples. But to his surprise,they shook their heads and said, “There was nothing like that there.”

19/n Let’s now look into other ideas regarding Mecca.

B) Described as the “center of the trade route”

Multiple times caravans are mentioned as coming and going from the Holy City & indeed Muhammad’s uncle was a merchant who regularly sent caravans on trading missions.

20/n Reference for 19/n

“Life of Muhammad” by Ibn Ishaq , Pg 79

Link: https://archive.org/details/GuillaumeATheLifeOfMuhammad

21/n Later, Muhammad married Khadija who also managed caravans of camels. Still later when living in Medina, Muhammad would raid Meccan caravans, some which consisted of as many as three thousand men.

Ref: “Life of Muhammad” by Ibn Ishaq , Pg 82

Link: https://archive.org/details/GuillaumeATheLifeOfMuhammad

22/n While conservatives are adamant that Mecca was the center of the trade route, modern historians give us a different picture. Dr. Patricia Crone mentions as below:

“Mecca was a barren place, and barren places do not make natural halts, and least of all when they are found..

23/n ...at a short distance from famously green environments. Why should caravans have made a steep descent to the barren lands of Mecca when they could have stopped at T’if? Mecca did, of course, have both a well and a sanctuary, but so did T’if, which had food supplies, too”.

24/n Reference for above: Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, by Patricia Crone, page 6-7 https://www.amazon.in/Meccan-Trade-Islam-Patricia-Crone/dp/1593331029

25/n Dr. Crone further asks,”What commodity was available in Arabia that could be transported such a distance, through such an inhospitable environment, and still be sold at a profit large enough to support the growth of a city in a peripheral site bereft of natural resources?”

26/n Reference for 25/n
“Meccan Trade & the rise of Islam” by Patricia , page-7 https://www.amazon.in/Meccan-Trade-Islam-Patricia-Crone/dp/1593331029

27/n Many claim that the caravans carried exotic goods,but according to research by Kister & Sprenger,the age of frankincense was over & the Arabs now engaged in a trade of leather and clothing;hardly items which could have founded a commercial empire of international dimensions.

28/n Gibson has often traced the various trade routes on a map of Arabia during his seminars on pre-Islamic Arabia. Then he asks the audience to mention where all the
trade routes intersect. This would obviously seem to be the “center of the trade route.”

29/n Inevitably, everyone responds that they intersect in northern Arabia,not at Mecca which wasn’t even a stopping place on the caravan routes.

It’s getting interesting isn’t it. Let me add more information.

30/n Can you believe

C) Mecca missing on early maps

Anyone would expect that a major trade city in Arabia would be plotted on early maps. Such maps never claimed to show every sites, but certainly plotted significant and famous cities.

31/n You will be surprised to know that not one map before 900 AD even mentions Mecca (Almost 2.5 centuries post Muhammad’s death).

32/n Gibson has done hard work of gathering copies of ancient maps of Arabia,diligently translating and transcribing,but couldn’t find once Mecca mentioned on an early map. An often quoted example of this is Ptolomy’s map of Arabia for 2nd Cen AD. Can u find Mecca in Snippet?

33/n Mecca is never shown, and indeed the mention of Mecca does not appear in any literature prior to 740 AD (approximately 122 years after the Hijra) when it first appears in the Continuatio Byzantia Arabica. (Ref pg267, Appendix A,pg 396 in Quranic Geography by Gibson).

34/n Lets now talk about

D) The Meccan valley

The Quran & the Hadiths clearly speak of Mecca being in a valley, and as having another valley next to the Ka’ba (possibly a stream bed). Check the snippets from Quran and Hadith of Bukhari

35/n Again Bukhari 4.583 talks of the valley again. Check the snippet

36/n Then let’s look into Bukhari 2.685. It gets even more interesting as it talks of rain in Holy Land.

Rain in currently known Mecca, isn’t it interesting?

Check the snippet.

37/n The above verse is very important that helps to disqualify Mecca and accept Petra as a valid solution. Al Bukhari tells us that rain used to run in a passage between these two mountains, and that Muhammad whould walk between the two mountains in a rain water passage.

38/n This indeed is a very unique description. Usually water runs between two mountains but never from one mountain to another.

Isn’t it?

In essence the Holy City was in a valley which contained a water passage that ran from one mountain to the other.

39/n Speaking plainly,it was located in a large valley, and beside the Ka’ba existed a small valley with stream in it.

THIS IS WAY DIFFERENT FROM MODERN DAY MECCA.

40/n Lets look at other aspect now

E) Something wrong seems with Mecca’s mountains

The Holy City is described to be surrounded by mountains where people could look down into the city to see the Yemeni elephant attacking the Ka’ba. Ref: “Life of Muhammad” by Ishaq, p25-26

41/n So what does it imply?

The mountains were close enough to Mecca & the Ka’ba that the people of Mecca could watch from the mountaintops in enough detail. Today in Mecca the nearest small outcropping of rocks is 1/2 a KM away from the Ka’ba with a gradual slope to the top.

42/n But there are no recorded fortifications atop this mountain. The rest of the mountains are 3+ KMs away.

Can any Islamic expert pl tell me how do you get power to see an elephant at a distance of 3 km?

43/n How much could you actually see?

Mecca is situated at an elevation of 277 meters AMSL in the wide dry river beds of the Wadi Ibrahim and several of its short tributaries. It is surrounded by low mountains.

44/n Gibson has documented distances of mountains quite well in his book. The main wadi (valley) lies some 10-15 km away means that Mecca isn’t a valley in reality.

45/n Throughout the year this wadi is dry and only flows during seasonal rains in the mountains.

In ancient times there was no natural flow of water through the village
of Mecca.

46/n One enters area through five wide passes in the surrounding mountains. These passes lead from the northeast to Jebal Min & Jebal ’Arafat; from the northwest to a coastal road to Medina; from the west to Jeddah on the coast; and from the south to Yemen.

47/n The gaps have also defined the direction of the contemporary expansion of the city.

Many pilgrims feel disappointed with the two mountains called bafa and Marwah. They are so small that today they are totally enclosed inside of the mosque building complex.

48/n If we observe the Ka’ba in the center of the mosque complex, to the right is a long walkway that leads to Jebal bafa on one side & Jebal Marwah on the other (check the image below, the walkway is top to bottom).

49/n The two mountains are actually so small that they are totally enclosed inside the building, allowing pilgrims to walk between them.

Now note these verses that describe the mountains of bafa and Marwah that supposedly has a rainwater passage between them

50/n
Snippet-1 , Bukhari, 2.617
Snippet-2, Bukhari 2.685

The two verses clearly talk about two mountains & rain water passage.

51/n The ritual of passing between the two mountains is probably based on Hagar,the wife of Abraham looking for water for baby Ishmael. Observe how bafa and Marwa seem to be mountains on either side of a large valley, not two little hillocks within a shallow valley.

52/n check this snippet of Bukhari, 4.583 & 4.584 supporting 51/n

53/n Fiqh us-Sunnah 5:85 talks about the two mountains too. Check snippet.

54/n Note that in the times before Islam two idols or places of worship existed: one on top of Mount bafa and the other on top of Mount Marwah. Today there is no evidence of these idols, neither idol bases nor inscriptions.
Ref: Fiqh us-Sunnah 5:86

55/n Yesterday I couldn’t write more. Now, I’m adding more to 54/n to take you through the truth of “Ka’aba”. Let’s remove more dust below the carpet.

So as starter for day can any Islamic scholar explain wt happened to statues at mount Bafa & Marwah? https://twitter.com/aabhas24/status/1149004498028732416?s=21

56/n The same idol is spoken about by Ishaq in his masterpiece “Life of Muhammad”.

’Amr set up an image on al-bafa called Nahlik Mujawid al-Rih and one on al-Marwa called Mut’im al-Tayr.’

Reference in Snippet.

For heaven’s sake pl tell me why we don’t find them?

57/n The trip between the two mountains was so hectic that some people couldn’t do the 7 crossings in a day.

2 refer in snippets below:
1)Fiqh us-Sunnah5:88a
2)Fiqh us-Sunnah5:90

Today there is 0 evidence of an ancient gate at Sufa, nor walls,nor stairs to climb the mountain.

58/n Now it gets more interesting. Let’s consider next point of study that leads more contradictions

F) Mecca is described as having a high and low side, and a road from either side.

The current Mecca doesn’t have such attributes. Let’s me elaborate.

59/n Refer these snippets of Bukhari’s Hadith that talk about high mountain and the passage.

The snippets are for 2.645 to 2.648 but it goes on to talk about same till 2.651

Can any Islamic Scholar pl clarify where are such attributes in current Mecca?

60/n More parts of Bukhari’s Hadith in snippet talk of the high mountain & passage.

2.815,2.820, 4.227, 4.231

Pray pl tell me where are they in Mecca of today?

61/n Further see the mention of Mount Hira in “Life of Muhammad” by Ibn Ishaq which is too close to Ka’ba.

Today Mount Hira is a considerable distance from the Ka’ba.

Check snippet 2 and relate the earlier tweets relating to point (F).

62/n How many of you will believe the next point( wrt to current Mecca) that I’m putting across:

G) Grass grew in the Holy City valley as per records

Let me put across the records for you.

63/n First point again comes from the magnificent work of Ibn Ishaq, “Life of Muhammad”. (Snippet 1)

It talks about grass on the site. Also Bukhari’s Hadith (9.337) talks about Grass (Snippet 2).

Now which Islamic Scholar can explain how Mecca became grass-less in

64/n What now if I tell you that:

H) The Holy City had clay and loam

This is as per the Islamic Records. Let me put them forward.

Ibn Ishaq mentions of clay cladding the feet? (Refer Snippet).

Can someone pl get me some clay from modern Mecca to justify?

65/n Same has been mentioned in “History of Al-Tabari, vol 6, pg6”.
(Check snippet)

It mentions: Abdallh, the father of Muhammad had been working in the soil and traces of soil were still on him when he invited Aminah to lie with him. (Paraphrased)

66/nFriends now let’s see another interesting point:

I)The Holy City had trees as/ record

Check snippet(Al-Timridhi Hadith, 1535).

The presence of trees in past can be easily tested by the presence of spores and pollens in undisturbed soil. To date there is no record in Mecca.

67/n The next point is:

J)The records speak of Grapes in Holy Site

Bukhari talks of it in his Hadith (4.281) ( check snippet).

So pray, tell me how did grapes disappear in 15 centuries ? Or how did Mecca had change of soil only in 150 decades?

68/n The other aspect which should raise doubt in one’s mind about Mecca is:
K)The large Meccan Army

Let’s check out references:

1)Al Tabari Vol VII, pg 13 Year 1 Expedition to Al Abwa 300 Meccan horsemen

69/n Al-Tabari, Vol VII , pg 15-16 talks about 100 men & 2500 camels.

Big army, isn’t it?

70/n Al-Tabari, Vol VII, pg 32-33, talks of 1000 Meccan Soldiers, quoting Muhammad himself.

71/n Check Snippets from Al-Tabari:

A)Vol VII, pg 90 200 Meccan soldiers
B)Vol VII, pg 98, 20,000 dirham captured from Meccan caravan.
C)Vol VII, pg 110 ,3000 Meccan soldiers, 200 cavalry
D)Vol VIII, pg 13, associated tribes, 10,000 Quraysh soldiers

72/n Apparently Mecca raised large armies & camels despite losses in battles year after year. (68/n-71/n details out sources)

Then definitely the Holy City to be a large. However, archeology says otherwise. How then could it have produced such armies? https://twitter.com/aabhas24/status/1149715130524979200?s=21